Are conservatives correct? Do parents have a right to design their children's curriculum so they'll grow up pro American?

@Roadsterrider What if they think child abuse is ok?

@BohemianBoo I think we need to define abuse, something that is illegal is most likely not going to be part of the curriculum. Are you asking if a parent should be allowed to teach abuse as a subject, or just asking if an abusive parent should be involved in what their child learns?

@Roadsterrider I don't mean as part of curriculum, I mean domestic abuse. If a parent thinks it's ok to bring their children up that way, should the state not intervene?
And should some ideas be considered wrong enough to constitute child abuse?

@BohemianBoo Is raising a child up to be patriotic abuse? Who gets to decide which political bent is correct and which is abuse? I don't see a problem pointing out what makes the US a great country or what mistakes have been made. Is it wrong to teach a child they can make something of themselves in this country easier here than many other countries in the world? I don't think so, is it wrong to teach children they are better or worse than other people because of their race or religion, personally I believe it is wrong but I don't think it is abuse.

@Roadsterrider [quote]Who gets to decide which political bent is correct and which is abuse?[/quote]

Generally, the majority. Conservatives want to teach their kids that there's something wrong with them if they're gay or trans. But we, as a society, have decided that this is wrong and harmful to children. I would say we should go a step further and consider it child abuse.

@BohemianBoo As a conservative and the parent of 3 children, there weren't any issues where I thought my kids had something "wrong" with them, it was really quite the opposite, I didn't want them to believe anything was wrong with them. Nothing that could be construed as debilitating, or a problem for them. I didn't want them to feel handicapped by anything. Nor did I want them to be ashamed of the country they were born into. When it comes to personal opinion, I don't see it as abuse. A person's opinion on how they want to raise their children should not be a political weapon, I graduated high school almost 40 years ago, I wasn't indoctrinated in patriotism at school, I was exposed to this country's involvement in slavery, the civil war that ended slavery. The good, the bad and the ugly. Do you have children, do you think that they should be indoctrinated by someone who may not share your idea of how they should be raised? In my family there are two openly gay men, they have never been told that something is wrong with them, and both are very conservative. I don't think conservatives have a corner on the market of thinking being gay is wrong, I think that would be more of a religious thing. And there are plenty of hard line liberals who are religious. I think the country is mostly moderate, and they aren't going to drive too far left or right. When either side goes too far against the status quo, the Whitehouse and senate or congress change hands. I would like for my grandchildren to have the same kind of education I had and decide for themselves. I have no illusion that the US has been a perfect country with a perfect government and has never done anything wrong, but, I have been in other countries and the ability to succeed in this country is easier than most of the countries I have had the pleasure of visiting.

@Roadsterrider [quote] In my family there are two openly gay men, they have never been told that something is wrong with them, and both are very conservative.[/quote]

I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions here. However, homophobia and transphobia are generally important parts of right-wing ideologies. And really, the only reason some Conservatives accept gay people today is because society as a whole has basically forced them. Much like we forced them to accept religious minorities and women's rights. Throughout American history, Conservatives have complained that it was "indoctrination" to teach their kids about women's rights, gay relationships, and minority religious ideas. But as a society, we accept that children need to learn facts, even if their parents disagree.
So no, I don't think we should stop teaching kids about reality, just because Conservatives don't like it.

@BohemianBoo It seems to me that you are supporting the idea that morals should be taught by teachers in public schools instead of by parents.

"As a society we accept that children need to learn the facts."

What facts? Drugs are available everywhere, guns are available everywhere, prostitution is available everywhere, should children learn about these subjects in school? Hardline Mormons believe a man can have multiple wives, should that be taught? You aren't talking about what is taught in schools though, you are talking about what parents teach their children. If I think my daughter should abstain from sex and marry as a virgin, if I have a son who is gay should I not share my thoughts on whether it is wrong or not? You advocate relieving parents of the duty to protect their children, to teach them in a moral manner. There are some very poor parents out there but the majority, liberal and conservative, don't want to give up their children to the political machine for social engineering experiments.

@Roadsterrider Duh? Public school has always taught morals. So has educational TV. Both are funded by the public and are a result of society's views on morality.
Conservatives don't have a problem with this, they only have a problem when they feel that their own morals aren't being taught.

This narrative, that schools are teaching children things and a child's own parents have no say in the matter isn't true because it ignores the fact that the schools' ethics are based on that of the overall society.
Now there are many issues that schools leave to the parents. If a kid asks a teacher what the right religion is, the teacher will probably say "go ask your parents." But when it comes to things like if it's ok for a woman to be president, we as a society have decided that this isn't up for debate. Schools must teach that women can be president.

@BohemianBoo I never got any kind of morals from school, that was attended to by my parents. The closest the schools I went to ever got to teaching morals was to treat others as we would like to be treated. Since then, my children have completed their studies in the public school system, my daughter was encouraged to consider abortion if she had an unwanted pregnancy. That remaining a virgin was an antiquated idea. One of my sons came home and explained that people who smoke cigarettes are drug abusers. Recently in the news, a school in Minnesota told students they weren't allowed to tell parents about questions on an "equity survey" they would be required to fill out. Some of the questions, sexual in nature, that they weren't to tell their parents about. If anything schools today seem to be trying to remove any type of morals, and it seems wrong to me. Who should be the deciding factor in morals if not the parents. If a child damages property, would you sue that child or his or her parents for restitution? The ultimate responsibility for a child rests with the parents. Some parents abdicate that responsibility, they should be held accountable for their actions or lack of action in this case. The morals of society don't come from schools, they come from society and what society is willing to accept. And it isn't a hard fast set of rules, people in San Francisco have a far different view of homosexuality or abortion than people from Des Moines might. As far as what schools teach, it has changed dramatically since I was in school. A child can't get a tattoo or a cell phone on their own, can't bring aspirin to school or midol, a school nurse or guidance counselor can schedule an abortion without notifying the parent of that student. Who is left with the aftermath of that, the parent, who still doesn't know what kind of mess their child is in because they weren't informed by the school. Schools seem to be focused on a complete lack of morals, the only thing that matters is what an individual student perceives as the truth for them. There is no framework for society except what they think and feel. The truth is that these students are unprepared for life in general, the reality is that they will be responsible for their actions and society will hold them accountable. Gun control is a hot topic, prior to the 1930s, there was no background check, age limit, for the purchase of a firearm, a 12 year old could mail order a surplus Thompson submachine gun and ammo and have it delivered to them, yet there were no school shootings. Since the 1930s, some 2000 gun laws have been enacted by local, state and federal government. Our society is in a moral decline, there isn't the discipline or values that previous generations held. Life is not held in the same value as it used to be. Blame it on progressive politics, a lack of faith, too much screen time, whatever you wish.

@Roadsterrider So obviously I'm not going to reply to all of this, but I will address certain specific points.

[quote]The closest the schools I went to ever got to teaching morals was to treat others as we would like to be treated.[/quote]

See, this is what I mean. Nobody has a problem with public schools and educational TV promoting morals, as long as we all agree with the morals. Conservatives only have an issue when they disagree with the morals, because their own morals are so horrible. Schools have always taught about families and have shown images of man/woman marriages. It's only when they show an image of a same-sex marriage, that suddenly schools shouldn't be teaching morality.

[quote]Who should be the deciding factor in morals if not the parents.[/quote]

Again, the parents alone never decided on the morals that their kids learned through school and edutainment. It was always based on the general views of the society. This is why we have private schools and homeschooling. And even then, there have always been rules. You can't teach your kids that it's ok to stab people, that's still illegal.

[quote]Our society is in a moral decline, there isn't the discipline or values that previous generations held. Life is not held in the same value as it used to be. Blame it on progressive politics, a lack of faith, too much screen time, whatever you wish.[/quote]

Literally, and I do mean LITERALLY, every generation says this about the next generation. If anything, this is the real failing of American education. Conservatives use the same propaganda over and over and over, because Americans are ignorant of history.
I highly recommend watching the old TV show "All in the Family." It's a fantastic window into the past to show that Conservatives have never evolved.

@BohemianBoo "Literally, and I do mean LITERALLY, every generation says this about the next generation. If anything, this is the real failing of American education. Conservatives use the same propaganda over and over and over, because Americans are ignorant of history.
I highly recommend watching the old TV show "All in the Family." It's a fantastic window into the past to show that Conservatives have never evolved."

Is it propaganda or is it evidence? I grew up in the same public schools except we had a rifle team, many of the students had rifles in their lockers or in cars if they drove. Yet there were no shootings, even with the presence of guns, there were no shooting. If there were altercations, it usually ended with a black eye or a bloody nose and it was over. Kids today need "safe places" because they can't deal with reality. Rates of teen suicide and depression are at all time highs. 30% of children live in single parent households, compared to about 5% 75 years ago. Being a single parent has been linked to poverty in studies and poverty linked to drug use and criminal activity in other studies. One of the things stressed in school when I was a youngster was personal responsibility. Today, it seems everything is someone else's fault. Nobody is to blame for anything, they are a victim of circumstances if they get pregnant or arrested for selling dope, killed while trying to rob someone. Dylann Roof went into a black church and killed 9 people, before the bodies were cold, reporters were detailing how rough a life the man had had that drove him to domestic terrorism. It wasn't his fault; it was the way he had been abused growing up. Then they made a plea deal so he wouldn't have to face the death penalty.

Whether conservatives have evolved or not really doesn't matter if what was working 75 years ago was working now. I talk to employers who can't find employees that can pass a drug screening, and if they do pass the drug test, half of them can't make it to work and don't want to work if they show up. What is something better now that it was 50 or 60 years ago? You can't blame everything on "outdated conservative ideas", conservatives haven't really changed anything since Reagan.

@Roadsterrider [quote]Is it propaganda or is it evidence?[/quote]

Conservatives said that letting Catholics into the country would destroy Christianity in America. When that didn't happen, they recycled the same arguments for Muslims. Conservatives said letting gays get married would corrupt the youth. When that didn't happen, they slightly modified the argument to be about trans people.
They said letting women work would make America into a Soviet country. When that didn't happen, then it was having a five day work week, having a minimum wage, having government health care. It's always the same incorrect arguments about whatever social change is happening.
So no, it's not evidence, because they NEVER present evidence. It's always just fear mongering, it's always wrong, and it's always really just about letting the rich decide on policy.

[quote]Kids today need "safe places" because they can't deal with reality. [/quote]

I'm not even going to address this pathetic stupidity until you look up what a "safe space" actually is and explain it to me.
I'm honestly amazed that you're falling for a lie from 2016. I don't mean to be rude, but this is so friggin sad that you're getting your opinions from moronic memes online.

[quote] Today, it seems everything is someone else's fault. Nobody is to blame for anything, they are a victim of circumstances if they get pregnant or arrested for selling dope, killed while trying to rob someone. Dylann Roof went into a black church and killed 9 people, before the bodies were cold, reporters were detailing how rough a life the man had had that drove him to domestic terrorism. It wasn't his fault; it was the way he had been abused growing up. Then they made a plea deal so he wouldn't have to face the death penalty.[/quote]

Yes, because we now know more about mental illness, the effects of poverty, and what causes people to be violent. That doesn't mean we make all crime legal. Dylan Roof still had to go to prison and obviously people need to take responsibility for their own actions. But we can still talk about how to reduce crime on a systemic level.

@BohemianBoo I am a conservative and I have no ideas on Catholics destroying Christianity, I always thought that they were part of Christianity. No different than Methodists or Baptists. There was a mainstream anti Catholic sentiment when JFK was running for office, not conservatives or democrats, but mainstream. I don't know how it only became a conservative thing to you.

On "safe places" if you haven't been watching the news and reading about it, I guess you don't really know if it is stupid or not.

Mental illness has very little to do with most criminal activity, it is just poor choices and blame. I grew up in poverty, I knew it was up to me to get out of it. I never resorted to selling drugs of stealing from others, I joined the military and got out. To some, it may be a never ending cycle, generational, to others who seek other opportunities and quit blaming their lot in life on everyone else, they succeed. How do you reduce crime on a systemic level? According to The Cato Institute, we have spent $15 Trillion dollars to eradicate poverty, there is a higher percentage of people in poverty than when this all started in the 1960s. Every progressive plan hatched has become a money laundering scheme from welfare to planned parenthood.

@Roadsterrider [quote]I am a conservative and I have no ideas on Catholics destroying Christianity, I always thought that they were part of Christianity.[/quote]

That's because you're a conservative in the twenty-twenties. If you were a conservative in the fifties, you'd be hearing people like Lauren Boebert rage against Catholics, instead of Muslims. But now, that Catholics have become assimilated, and Muslims are the new religious minority, they have to be the scary ones.

[quote]There was a mainstream anti Catholic sentiment when JFK was running for office, not conservatives or democrats, but mainstream. I don't know how it only became a conservative thing to you.[/quote]

No, the Left at the time didn't have an issue with JFK being Catholic. This was only an issue for conservative Protestants who were afraid that America was becoming too Catholic.

[quote]On "safe places" if you haven't been watching the news and reading about it, I guess you don't really know if it is stupid or not.[/quote]

Alright, you didn't answer me, so you don't actually know what a safe space is. Should I explain it to you?

[quote]I grew up in poverty, I knew it was up to me to get out of it.[/quote]

This is a child's understand of how the world works. Yes, if you're born into poverty, you should do everything you can to get out of it. But the point is that people who live in poverty are more likely to turn to crime for survival. What you're basically saying is there are no problems at the systemic level. Black people living under Jim Crow should have just worked harder.

[quote]According to The Cato Institute, we have spent $15 Trillion dollars to eradicate poverty, there is a higher percentage of people in poverty than when this all started in the 1960s.[/quote]

Yeah, because economic policies have moved drastically to the Right in recent years. The rich are paying less in taxes for welfare programs today than they were back before these programs even started.
America has gone Left on social issues, but on economics, we're still being screwed by Reaganomics.

@BohemianBoo I live in reality, not my imagination. Instead of saying that Lauren Boebert would have been raging out against Catholics, this idea is purely from your imagination. Who were the republicans who raged because JFK was a Catholic. I have read quite a bit about JFK, and the problem of being Catholic was both parties, Ds and Rs. The feeling is that it would allow the Pope to influence the president.

It wasn't that America was becoming too Catholic, it was that the Pope might be able to influence the president and nobody wanted the Catholic Church to have the president's ear.

I don't think that safe spaces today are anything like what they were when the term was coined in the 1960s. Back in the 60s, it was primarily a place where the LGBTQ crowd could go, night clubs and such, where they would be safe from homophobes. Today it is considered a place where dissent and open discussion is not tolerated, there may be no diversity of opinion in a "safe space".

Jim Crow was separate but equal, not sure how we got there because I never mentioned race, just poverty. I may have a child's understanding of it, but it worked. I figured out that if I didn't want to remain poor, I needed to do something to make myself worth more to an employer. I couldn't afford to go to college. The military was the next choice, I learned how to work on aircraft in the military, and after getting out, getting a certification through the FAA to work on them in the civilian world, I have never looked back. If a person doesn't like where they are in life it is up to them to change it. If you want to make more money, make yourself more valuable. As I was figuring this out for myself, I did a stint as an apprentice welder for $1 an hour. I worked as an apprentice mechanic for $3.35 an hour. Thirty years later, I am still a mechanic, but I am the answer guy, when guys can't fix something, they call me. I could have stayed where I grew up and sold pot, meth, and sat on the porch and drank like most of my peers, that would have been easy enough. I am more appreciative of my parents and the way I was raised every time I go back and realize how far I have gotten in life compared to those who chose the easy way.

As far as taxes go, I can only hope that you get a great job and, in a few years start moving up the economic ladder. And the same would go for your significant other. As you make more money, you will realize how much what you pay in changes, The top 20% of wage earners pay about 70% of the taxes collected by the government. The bottom 20% of earners pay about 2% of the total collected.

https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2019/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA15yNBhDTARIsAGnwe0XOVxRpjNGYgYX4HocMh0bXUoZSy_PArDaesHxbMtmFLSHBVd_HU5gaAmUREALw_wcB

When liberal politicians want to tax wealthy people, who already pay more or they want to tax businesses to put more into social engineering programs, they are not helping anyone. Taxes are the cost of doing business, the consumer pays those taxes with no respect to whether he is in the top 20% or the bottom 20% of earners.

Maybe it is only a nickel on a gallon of gas but when the independent carpenter fills up his tank and it costs an extra dollar, it starts adding up, in the state I live in, fuel costs have doubled. Nothing is free in this world, welfare, medicaid, medicare, roads and bridges, the rest of the pork barrel projects. The government doesn't make money, they can't fund anything without first collecting money from someone else in the form of taxes. Income tax as we know it started in the early 1900s, before that most of the revenue collected by the US government was from import and export tariffs. There was no income tax.

Personally, I would like to see a flat tax, across the board, 10%, 15%. If you make $1000, you pay $100 if you make $100,000 you pay $10,000. In reality that would go over like a fart in church, whether Catholic or Protestant. Because it would be equal across the whole field. No more Earned Income Credit, no more hidey holes, no shelters.

There are systemic problems, the government can't pay for the fix though. It will require some assistance and the will of the individual to accept responsibility and take actions to fix problems in society.