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If you’re against governments forcing women to wear burqas or hijabs then you should be against governments banning women from wearing them too

I’m sure most of you know about France’s burqa ban, but did you know that they passed a bill to ban girls under 18 from wearing hijabs in public?

Just as I’m against religious authoritarianism, I can’t stand this breed of enforced secularism. Do I like hijabs/burqas/niqabs? No, which is why I’ll never wear one, but do I think other women should be banned from expressing their Muslim faith by wearing one? Hell no!

I also take issue with the fact that ALL religious symbols are banned in schools, you can’t even wear your favorite cross or Star of David necklace. And yarmulkes are out of the question. How can you be for separation of church and state and yet stifle people’s freedom of religious expression?

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

I completely agree.

The French-specific context matters too. I'm British but I follow a bit of French politics.

Ever since the French Revolution, their national sense of self has been tied up in Republican (as in anti-monarchist) values and the separation of church and state. Britain, for example, has the Church of England. British people are much less religious than Americans but the idea of Christianity as an official state religion never really left.

In France, the defense of this ban has used that frame as a justification. It's about separating religion from public life and being more liberal and more French and freer etc.

BUT... (and it's a big but) there is also a racial element at play. The people who first argued for this ban are Le Pen's National Rally. They are former fascists who claim to be not fascists and are nice people really (ahem). Unfortunately, it is a popular policy but a lot of that is down to French exceptionalism. The idea is that the only good way to be French is to be a (white) secular Catholic. Britain, for all its flaws, has bought into multiculturalism. There are different ways to be British but only one way to be 'true' French.

Unfortunately, Emmanual Macron and a lot of other French politicians support this ban and his party even banned a candidate from wearing a hijab is an election poster:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/12/macrons-party-bans-muslim-candidate-for-wearing-hijab-in-poster

It would be nice to believe that Macron is just the ultra-liberal atheist but its really about triangulating with Marine Le Pen's ideas because he thinks this will win him re-election.

I myself am a humanist but I also support religious freedom provided it does no harm to others (and this doesn't). Unfortunately, secular liberal values can be used as a cover for racial prejudice.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User They allowed it for a long time and only changed the rules when the far right started having significant influence. Coincidence perhaps?

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User or countries can accept differences of people.

To me, being British does not mean to be exclusive to white Christians or white humanists.

If their practice of religions does not harm me then I fail to see the problem.

All religion is superstition. However, that does not mean the state has the right to tell others what to believe, or not believe.

Western values include toleration of different beliefs so let's practice that.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User In Britain we dont have the Burka ban. I keep waiting for the sky to fall it but it hasn't happened yet

I've also known a lot of Muslims in my life and they are largely nice people. If I told them to integrate or leave, it woukd be a dick move.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User Are you French?

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User OK so that is a no. Its just of you are telling me that the ban is nothing to do with racism or that it was time for a change... that implies in depth knowledge of a country's politics which you do not have.

I don't think you understand the depths of Islamaphobia in Europe, French culture or French politics. I don't think you understand Islam as practiced.

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PDXNative1986 · 36-40, MVIP

@Burnley123 https://voca.ro/17dr2KVR0VR6

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User Yeah it would narrow it down to 65 million. Intimate details, clwarly. You are obfuscating though so whatever.

SW-User

@Burnley123 yeah France is so racist I can remember Muslims getting gunned down on the streets and run over with trucks... oh wait, 🤔

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User I've been to France, I read about France and I know French people. You think you have an informed opinion but your comments betray a lack of knowledge. Take it or leave it.

JoeyFoxx · 56-60, M

@SW-User

France doesn’t allow religious doings in a public setting

So, Catholics are banned from wearing crosses?

Interesting

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@Burnley123 A friend of mine who moved to Canada from Normandy told me alot of this shit is just racism with a bunch of excuses. Even at the government level if you want to become a citizen you better be white, Catholic, and be able to trace your ancestry to Charlemagne. otherwise the only way you are likely to get citizenship is to go to Djibouti and join the Legion Etrangere and get shot for France.

SW-User

Again are you assuming you know where I’m from?

If anyone lacks knowledge it is you, it’s very evident.

It’s also evident that you’re a liar and you expect everyone to agree with your opinions.

Maybe you’d like to finish this conversation in French since you’re an expert on everything French. I see through the facade, your facade. 😏 @Burnley123

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I happen to know they have a similar ban in French Canada. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Its a shame because France is more left wing than Britain in most ways. The still have powerful unions and a fantastic protest culture. France is not good on racial politics though. Macron has started talking about 'Islam-leftism' , which is basically how the English speaking right use critical race theory. It's also a disengenuous way of linking leftist colonial scholars with with an' Islamic threat' to 'French values.'

Macron hates the left but he is too intelligent not to know this is BS. However, he expects to face Le Pen in the runoff for the next election and has decided that the best stratagey for doing that is to triangulate with the NR (racially charged) rhetoric and trash the left. In doing so, he is making these rightwing conspiracies part of the liberal mainstream. They have long had currency on the French radical right.

Normally I do support lesser evils but it this case I probably couldn't.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@SW-User Nice attempt to get a rise out of me. If you were French, you would have told me by now. I can also assume you are not French due to the obvious lack of knowledge.

I'm happy for anyone reading this to judge which one of us knows what they are talking about. Bye bye troll. 👋

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@Burnley123 Oh Definitely. Quebec seems to take alot of cues from France, both the good and the downright terrible.

Quebec is one of the most left wing parts of our country by far but just like in France some people still have the Euro centric colonial mentality. I would not say it is the majority though.