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Tony Blair and George W Bush have a lot to answer for.

From the moment that the invasion happened, there were only two possible outcomes: perpetual military occupation or the Taliban retaking the country. This is because the Afghan people (whatever their views on the Taliban) never ever supported the military invasion by foreign powers. Look at the pitiful resistance given by the heavily funded government army. Also look at how the Taliban managed to survive any military defeats by getting support from the rural Afghan populations. You can win a conflict by conventional means but you can never win consent to rule in this way.

This is not WW2: in which the population of a modern Western country accepted military defeat and preferred subjugation by Western powers to the alternative, which was rule by Stalin's USSR. The process was aided by massive national guilt for the holocaust, a willingness to build a new country and a desire to eventually reunite with East Germany. That situation was exceptional is no analagy for the war against the Taliban.

You can't invade a country, kill lots of people and then expect a domestic populations to support you. Vietnam does work as an analogy, as does Iraq.

The war never had a true humanitarian aim anyway. Nor was it ever really about defeating terrorism. There were and are plenty of other abysmal regimes across the globe and Bin Laden got killed (in Pakistan) years ago. It was a war fought for the same reasons most wars have always been fought: over power and resources. That it failed so abysmally on its own terms does not mean that those terms were ever good.

Biden will get blamed for this but to criticise him here misses the pount: this was always going to happen. It could have been ten years later or ten years earlier but the awful results woukd still have been the same.
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Human1000 · 51-55, M
Blaming Biden just seems absurd to me. Personally, I didn’t think the US should have left, but no one else agreed with me. This is what ending “endless wars” looks like.


There’s gambling in Casablanca? I’m shocked!
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Human1000 How long would we have had to stay to achieve a good outcome?

I realise it's maybe not fair to ask you that question because nobody knows. It could have been another twenty years, onother ten or maybe forever. I've heard people say it was the wrong time to leave and they give compelling reasons why but there never was a good time to leave and there probably never would have been.
Human1000 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 Perhaps indefinitely. 3000 troops were doing the job. No American fatalities for 18 months.

Maybe exiting so slowly the Taliban wouldn’t notice? I suppose that’s what the criticism should be limited to, although it seems to be more about the Taliban takeover, which makes no sense.

My major point is simply, “this is what you want, this is what you get.”
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Human1000 The lack of fatalities is because of a ceasefire agreement which included the promise to withdraw troops. 3000 would need to be increased massively during any periodic Taliban surge.

This situation is not what I want and why would I want that? I was against this war from the start and I was right. I don't see an alternative to what is happening now that doesn't involve continuing a war for longer with the same outcome.
Human1000 · 51-55, M
@Burnley123 Stipulated. I was for the war, and in retrospect would have stayed 5 years max with the understanding that after 5 years it was up to the Afghans…regular army, militia, what have you. Without that as the mission, the rest was predictable. Obama tried some version of this, but got scared, perhaps because of Iraq.

In any event, never again? Would be nice to learn this lesson at last.
Northwest · M
@Human1000 [quote]Perhaps indefinitely. 3000 troops were doing the job. No American fatalities for 18 months.
[/quote]

This was not an option. Even Orange Man understood that, leading to the commitment he made to the Taliban (he did not involve the Afghan government in that decision), to withdraw by May 1, 2021.

The alternative, as presented by the Taliban, would have been a renewal of the all-out wars, forcing the USA to recommit a full force of hundreds of thousands in direct and support personnel.

So, Trump decided to take the Taliban offer of no hostilities against the US forces, in return for a US withdrawal. Under Trump it would have happened sooner.

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
Human1000 · 51-55, M
@Northwest I am sure you are right, but my point isn’t really advocating staying forever, so much as not being surprised about what happened when we left.
Northwest · M
@Human1000 I don't think anyone who was close enough to the situation is surprised. The 300K soldiers were close to 60K soldiers, without a real supply and command structure in place.