What are the criteria for proving that a vote was false or fraudulent?

@Roadsterrider Mail in ballots received after Election Day that were postmarked prior are legal ballots in many states. State law governs. There is no evidence of anything other than minor voter fraud in this election. None.

Here are the documented voter fraud cases from the 2020 election from the 155,000,000 votes cast:

1. A man in Pennsylvania who tried to vote as his son.
2. A man and woman from Austin who allegedly tried to vote in Illinois by claiming residence in that state. It’s not clear whether they obtained ballots.
3. A man in Lisle, Ill., who allegedly signed a ballot certification with someone else’s name.
4. A man in Carol Stream, Ill., who allegedly filled out an online ballot application for someone who shared his last name. It’s not clear whether the ballot was provided.
5. A woman in Naperville, Ill., who allegedly signed a ballot certification with someone else’s name.
6. A woman in Buckingham, Pa., who allegedly signed a ballot declaration for her dead mother.
7. A woman in Quakertown, Pa., who claims to have accidentally mailed a ballot for her mother after she died.
8. A woman from Milford, Maine, who reported herself for voting twice, once by absentee at home and once in person at college.
9. A woman from Bowdoinham, Maine, who allegedly voted with an absentee ballot for a former roommate.
10. A woman in Cedarburg, Wis., who allegedly submitted a ballot for a dead person.
11. A man in Stockton, N.J., who allegedly submitted a ballot for a dead person.
12. A man in Carteret, N.J., who allegedly voted twice with different names.
13. A man in Woodbridge, N.J., who allegedly registered at his business instead of his home.
14. A man from Media, Pa., who admitted to casting a ballot for his dead mother.
15. A man from Canton, Mich., who admitted to filling out his daughter’s ballot when she was at college.

That's it. Those are the documented cases. A little less than one in every 10,000,000 votes. There was no significant voter fraud in the 2020 election, despite Trump's lies about it. Get used to the fact that Biden was legally elected, and by a good margin.

@windinhishair In PA 2 million votes came in after 8:00pm and those mail in ballots didn't come from the USPS. The rules to properly cast ballots were not followed. There may be a good explanation for the way the laws were broken during the election, there were certainly extenuating circumstances due to covid. The count of those votes should be verified. Democrats are fighting hard to make sure that the results didn't get audited in PA, Arizona, Georgia and other states. If there isn't any voter fraud or not enough to change the outcome, at least it will restore faith in the system. If widespread voter fraud is proven, it can be addressed so that it can't happen again. Treason is serious, the system shouldn't be left unchecked. Personally I want to know the truth either way.

Is 7 million a good margin? That is 4.5%, not sure I would call that good or not. Obama won by 10 million. Reagan won in 1984 by about 16 million. If Trump is really lying about the election, it seems like democrats would like to prove it and finally put him to bed. But they did their best to make sure the realities of the election that are available aren't going to see the light of truth. Looking at it one way, 2 million votes in PA that shouldn't have been counted, if that were the case in all six of the states that flipped after polls closed we are talking about 12 million votes, that would considerably alter the outcome of the election. Again, I would like to know the truth, it may determine who I support in future elections.

A few examples of individuals caught fraudulently submitting one vote pales in comparison to examples like Domenick Demuro who was an election judge in Philly convicted of taking bribes to alter election results and certifying altered election results. He was throwing elections for democrat candidates. He robbed 1000s of voters of their vote. He committed these acts in the 2014 and 2016 elections and was convicted in 2020. When a judge can be bought for a few thousand dollars, the system needs work.

@Roadsterrider The election has already been counted, recounted, certified, and adjudicated. Biden won, fair and square. All of the lawsuits have been resolved against Trump, many by Republican judges. Your numbers in Pennsylvania and elsewhere are fantasies--nothing more or less. You just can't face the fact that your candidate lost by a significant margin, and that there is no fraud other than isolated, individual cases. Trump is lying about and gaslighting the election, and the gullible such as yourself fall for it. You already have the truth in front of you and have had it for over half a year. No additional information is necessary. Deal with your loss and move on.

When the Arizona "recount" results are announced for Trump, despite massive chain of custody violations and ballot tampering, will you believe the result, or will you look at the deeply failed process by inexperienced Trump Cultists and see the truth? I think we both know which way you will go, despite complete lack of evidence.

As far as Dominick Demuro is concerned, you have once again strayed from the truth. Rather than the 1000s of votes you allege, the altered vote totals in the three elections were 27, 40, and 46, resulting in a total 113 votes total in the three elections. This is a small number of votes, though it was significant in the individual precinct in which they were cast, and existing procedures caught him in his deception. His despicable actions say nothing about other elections in other locales or even in his area.

In the future, please get your facts straight instead of lying to make a bogus point.

@windinhishair The population if Philly is 1.5 million, the deals he made invalidated the vote of the area he covered. At the time, the area he presided over was 22% of the vote for the city of Philly. Twenty percent is of 1.5 million is 330,000. Lets go with half of that assuming the elections he was throwing for democrats was a close race, he disenfranchised at least 165,000 voters by allowing altered vote counts to be certified.

You argue that it was a fair election without fraud, your evidence is that there was such a miniscule amount of fraud. You think I should just ignore the voter fraud that was observed and documented on election night because people like you say it wasn't a fraudulent election and that whatever fraud there was is insignificant to the results.

That doesn't work for me. I don't have confidence that my vote is recorded as I cast it. And I can't have that confidence until things are explained. Where did those votes that came in after the polls closed come from? Why didn't they get delivered by the postal service? I mean literally millions of votes were required to swing the election in those states, delivered by private individuals in duffel bags, suitcases, garbage bags, no room for fraud there!

I live in PA and voted in PA, the laws in place require absentee ballots be received by 8:00 pm on election day. Every single vote that came in after 8:00 pm and was dumped into the ballot boxes to be counted was a fraudulent vote. There is no disputing this, it is the law in PA. That is 20 electoral votes that were stolen. I don't know what the election laws are for other states, but the way it happened in PA was identical to those other states so it is fair to assume that the same kind of fraud happened in those other states.

@Roadsterrider Spectacularly wrong. According the the Philadelphia Enquirer, the data I gave you previously is correct. 113 votes total. Not 330,000 or 165,000 or a bazillion gazillion. Oh, and the fraud was during the 2014 and 2016 elections, not last year. Go with [b]real[/b] data to make a point, if you have one. Not fabricated data. It just makes you look desperate to lie about it and try to take a problem from years before and move it both in time and extent to make 113 votes into 165,000.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/voter-fraud-philadelphia-ward-leader-judge-of-elections-domenick-demuro-guilty-plea-20200521.html

Voter fraud should not be ignored. When fraud is discovered, it should be prosecuted, and any systemic issues corrected. The fact you don't trust the vote is your prerogative, but it doesn't affect the election. There is no evidence that votes were "delivered by private individuals in duffel bags, suitcases, garbage bags". All this has been previously litigated, including your fabricated "alternative facts", and no lawsuits were found in favor of Trump. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Again, you are free to make up your own facts and believe what you wish, even when there are no facts supporting your position. But you are not free to overturn a free and fair election just because you don't like the results.

Just so some of us (me) are dealing with facts, a total of approximately 10,000 votes were received in PA after 8 PM on Election Night. Biden won the state by 80,555 votes. The later votes were segregated after a ruling by Justice Alito. Even if all the votes received after 8 PM were for Trump, and they were counted four times each, it would only reduce the margin by half. Again, your unwarranted hysteria about a fair election you allege to be stolen is just that--hysteria. Biden won Pennsylvania by a margin of 50.01% to 48.84%. That's not insignificant or within a range that can be overturned by a judge casting less than 50 fraudulent votes (notwithstanding that the fraud in question was in 2014 and 2016, not 2020).

It is sad to see someone so desperate to overturn an election that they have lost all perspective and are grasping at straws, even those that have been proven to be false.

@windinhishair He threw an election and that election was in an area that comprised 22% of voters in Philly so it is not in error, he may have fudged the numbers by a small percentage but the number of people he altered the outcome of the election for in 165K at least, being half of that 22%. The 10,000 number doesn't reflect many of the votes that came in after polls closed because the democrat controlled legislature decided to change law with the stroke of a pen and change how late they could be accepted. Extra time, outside of the current laws, given to count ballots that were received after the current cut off for them.

No matter how you look at it, the state I live in carried out a fraudulent election. I don't care if it was 10, 000 votes or half a million votes. It is wrong and it is fraudulent, it shouldn't be happening. There is video of guys carrying garbage bags full of ballots that are being stuffed into ballot boxes, no time stamps, nothing. Those votes were counted when they shouldn't have been counted.

We will differ in opinions on the subject, I would like to know the truth, I would like to know my vote counts. When it appears that election laws are ignored or arbitrarily followed depending on whether a particular district is mostly conservative or liberal.

If the laws governing the election need to be changed, change them, but it is unacceptable to change them in the middle of an election. It is unacceptable to decide "Hey, we are going to extend the window for 48 or 72 hours because it is really close.

It is like kids on a playground running a race, the guy that loses immediately says "best out of three", if he loses again, it is "best out of five", and this goes on till the previous winner sprains his ankle and can't run any more and the kid that can't really run all that fast is declared the winner.

Biden will prove to be an abysmal failure, in 2024 if Trump doesn't run, it will be someone who is equally conservative, provided the election isn't stolen again, and conservatives will be at the helm again.

@Roadsterrider Dominick Demuro did not "throw an election". He committed fraud in a single precinct, not the entire Philadelphia area, and it was in 2014 and 2016, not 2020. There is no evidence that his actions influenced any election. You didn't bother to read the facts on the case, did you?

The 10,000 votes are the TOTAL votes received after 8 PM on Election Night, so it DOES include votes that came in after the polls closed. Nice try, but wrong again. Another lie.

I thought you said you lived in PA? And you don't know the makeup of your own state legislature? The Assembly has 203 members, 113 of whom (56%) are [b]REPUBLICAN[/b]. The Senate has 50 members, 28 of whom are [b]REPUBLICAN[/b]. Please explain how this makes both bodies Democrat-controlled?

Any way you look at it, the election was fair and legal. No amount of wishing, foot-stomping, and lying will change the valid results. Best two of three or best three of five won't work for you and the other deniers.

All of the things you are alleging have been trotted before the courts, and no evidence has been found to support your bogus assertions. None. [b]ALL[/b] cases have been adjudicated against those who allege fraud.

The reason we differ in our opinions on the election is that one of us uses facts (me), and the other (you) uses unsupported information that is factually incorrect, even after it is debunked. You are free to believe in fairy tales, but no amount of belief will make them come true.

We shall see how Biden performs. So far, his lowest approval rating is significantly higher than the highest achieved by Trump on any day of his failed term in office. A majority of Americans approve of Biden and the work he is doing on their behalf. Hopefully you will be able to accept facts in time.

@windinhishair In a single precinct that contained 22% of the total vote count of Philly.

Your original statement was that fraud was insignificant. Mine is that it is way more widespread than we know.

The facts are that he threw several elections and took money to do it, the election laws are flawed, there is not enough oversight, and there is plenty of room for fraud. You may see it as insignificant, I do not. We have laws for a reason, we have elections for a reason. You may not agree with information from the Heritage Foundation but there are something like 20,000 cases pending for voter fraud with a huge portion of those cases from the 2020 election. Demuro was in 2014-16. Seven years later we are getting a conviction. What kinds of convictions will be thrown under the rug 7 years from now?

As far as the election goes, Biden won, but this election isn't the first time voter fraud has come up. From Hillary Clinton in an interview,

“There was a widespread understanding that this election [in 2016] was not on the level,” Clinton said during an interview for the latest episode of The Atlantic’s politics podcast, The Ticket. “We still don’t know what really happened.”

We heard the voter fraud claims in 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020 and if we don't fix a system that so obviously allows voter fraud, we will be talking about it again in 2024.

I don't ever want to hear a politician ever again say "voter fraud", fix the process that is broken.

@Roadsterrider There is no single precinct in Philadelphia that contains 22% of the vote. Does that even make sense to you? Philadelphia had 1,135,000 registered voters last year. Are you saying that there is a single precinct with 249,700 voters? That doesn't sound strange to you at all? And tell me exactly how 113 false votes over three separate elections with a quarter million voters throws an election? The total votes Demuro cast were about 0.015% of the total registered voters over three elections. Or about one in every 30,000 registered voters. Exactly how does that throw an election?

I gave you the documented voter fraud cases earlier. Absolutely insignificant in the grand scheme of elections. The rare cases, when found, are prosecuted.

The Heritage Foundation is a right-wing organization that cannot be trusted to provide factual information on voter fraud. There are not 20,000 cases pending for voter fraud unless you can provide documentation. There are not 2,000 cases pending for voter fraud. I strongly doubt there are even 200. Possibly 20.

Clinton was referencing the Russian influence in the election. She's correct that we don't know exactly what happened, but it didn't involve changing votes or filing fake ballots.

Voter fraud is and has been rare, and isn't something that needs to be fixed by voter suppression and preventing people from legally voting.

The key point here is that Biden won a fair election, and by a good amount. He is the legitimately elected president of the US. No amount of obviously false conspiracy theories and bogus data and failed lawsuits will change the truth.

@Roadsterrider Let's do some fun math. Last November 749,000 Philadelphians voted in the election. In your wild fantasy precinct that contained 22% of all voters in the area, about 164,780 people would have voted. The polling hours were 7 AM to 8 PM. That's 13 hours or 780 minutes or 46,800 seconds. So more than 3.5 people were voting in that one precinct and location every second for 13 hours. Every single minute, more than 211 people voted, all day long and into the night. They must have been running through or at least jogging. How many voting booths were there? If there were 211 in that one location, everyone would have one minute to run into the polling place, register, get their ballot, cast it, and run out. Can you identify the indoor precinct location that could handle 211 people every minute for 13 hours? Which one of the 1703 precincts is it? The map showing all of the precincts in Philadelphia from the past election shows none that would cover 22% of the city or its population.

https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/philadelphia-presidential-votes-map-20201106.html

Do you think you just might be mistaken with some of your "facts"? Or is everyone in Philadelphia's largest precinct a track star, including the elderly?

@windinhishair Not sure where you are going with this except to try to make it look impossible, where did I say 100% of voters in Philly voted in that precinct? I didn't. I said his precinct covered an area with 22% of the voters in Philly. If you take 22% of 749,000, that is roughly 150,000, and if you discount the mail in ballots, it would be considerably less than that.

The elephant in the room is all the mail in ballots that came to polling places in the dead of night without going through the post office.

I think there are enough examples of voter fraud to investigate and fix the problems. In PA Biden "won" by 8500 votes, the 150K from that precinct in Philly may have determined the statewide election results in a national election.

It seems that you think it should be ignored, in the last two presidential elections both losing candidates have stated that they believed there was election fraud, one a democrat and one a republican. It is a truly bipartisan issue. There were plenty of democrats calling for investigations when Hillary Clinton lost in 2016, claims that Trump wasn't a legitimate winner, it spawned the "Not my President" rhetoric.

The article that said Demuro's area covered 22% of the vote was in the Washington Post and in a local Philly paper.

@Roadsterrider I used the percentages you provided, which are so ridiculous that it is obvious it couldn't happen. I did not use 100% of the vote cast on election day, just 22% as you alleged. If I used the total vote, it would be even more ridiculous

There were no secret ballots streaming in from everywhere. Those spurious allegations were reviewed by the courts and were laughed out because there was no evidence whatsoever of it occuring. Random people on the internet isn't evidence. Court filings without evidence, as in this situation, don't go anywhere.

And now I see you are making up more data--Biden did not win by 8500 votes. Biden won by 80,555 votes in PA. You can choose to lie about it, but that's the margin.

Democrats were not claiming voter fraud in 2016 as the Trump Cult was in 2020. They were claiming Russian influence, which was proven, but not voter fraud. You don't have to continue to make things up. Voter fraud is not a major issue and is not influencing national elections. I already gave you the voter fraud instances documented in this election. A total of three were in PA.

Please provide the link saying that 22% of all the vote in Philly was in a single precinct out of the 1703 in the City. You can't do it because it didn't happen.

In summary, everything you just said was wrong and without evidence. But keep trying. Maybe if you keep lying to yourself and others, you will start to believe it.

@Roadsterrider Here is a link to the 2020 election data for Philadelphia (and other elections going further back in time). You'll notice that in no precincts did Biden or Trump receive even 1000 votes, let along 22% (roughly 150,000) of the votes cast. You can search the data if you like. It is an excel file.

https://www.philadelphiavotes.com/en/resources-a-data/ballot-box-app.html