Will Netanyahu's departure help relations with the Palestinians?

The Palestinians themselves don't think so.

It's probable but not yet certain that Israel's longest serving and most violent leader will be sent out of power. His corruption and decrease in popularity means that there is a big tent coalition of parties set to remove Bibi from office. This is a good thing.

The coalition in question though even has some parties who are to the right of Netanyahu and whose main problems with him is that he hasn't built enough settlements on Palestian land or bombed enough buildings.

Even the centre and centre-left of Israeli politics is Zionist and hawkish. The institutions of the country, from the courts to the IDF, are geared towards driving Palestinians from their land and further entrenching the military occupation. 'End of a dark era and the beginning of a new dark era,' is how one Palestinian put it. The problems are systemic and change needs to come from outside by stopping arms sales to Israel and forcing the state to comply with international law.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/04/palestinians-welcome-end-of-netanyahu-era-but-fear-more-of-the-same

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CountScrofula · 41-45, M

The only entity with the power to end this is Israel.

The endless expectation that the Palestinians must all magically become Gandhi is insane, unrealistic, and dehumanizing. Over 200 people were killed recently, 66 of them children. You expect anyone to behave peacefully after that?

Israel has the standing army, all the money, and a stable state. They need to not just go to a ceasefire, but weather any attacks that occur after a ceasefire without retaliating.

The entity with the power is the one who has to end this, and the Palestinians have absolutely no power.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@CountScrofula Expecting Israel to behave as Ghandi after a bunch of rocket attacks were fired upon them... is that also insane, unrealistic and dehumanizing?

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Kwek00 You get why this is a hard problem to solve.

But no. Life in West Bank and life in Tel Aviv are not equivalent. Surely you know this. Israel is not a bombed out wreck as the rockets rarely land and when they do, Israel's military response is through the best standing army on the planet. You can just tell the army "don't kill anyone' and they won't. Hamas does not have that ability because there's no state, let alone an army.

This 'both sides' stuff is disingenuous and you're smarter than that. Israel has the power. Palestine does not. Surely this is obvious.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Kwek00 Which itself was retaliation for ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem. We could go on. I disagree strongly with Hamas targeting civilians on moral grounds and strategy, though it does not alter the bigger picture.

Count is right in that when one side has all the power (and commits 80%+ of the violence BTW) a reductive 'both sudesism' makes no sense.

By having the wrong analysis, it also means that you can't have a viable solution. If you are gonna have an Oslo Accords style peace process (I see nothing more viable), then the side with the power needs to comply with it, this tine. This won't happen while Israel is given money, weapons and diplomatic cover from the world's superpower.

CountScrofula · 41-45, M

@Burnley123 Right and vitally, this is a completely sustainable situation for Israel and I'm convinced they are happy to sacrifice a few civilians to rocket attacks now and again to provide permanent justification for settlement and apartheid. Actual peace is not in Israeli interests.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@CountScrofula
[quote]But no. Life in West Bank and life in Tel Aviv are not equivalent.[/quote]

Which is a partially the consequence of the attitude of Palestinian leaders. The other people that are to blame is the Israelian attitude and all the partners of United Nations that refuse to call people responsible on both sides according to International Law. Mainly, the US and it's partners because of strategic interests.

[quote]But no. Life in West Bank and life in Tel Aviv are not equivalent.[/quote]

Part of how the living conditions are on the West Bank, is also a consequence of the political body that governs them. It's almost as if it's okay to have a really bad governement and other people have to be blamed for this aspect.

[quote] Israel is not a bombed out wreck as the rockets rarely land and when they do[/quote]

If you open fire on me, and you miss every shot and I hit you in the head. Well, then someone else can argue that I wasn't proportional with my violence because you are dead and I'm not. But the intend of you wanting to kill me was clearly there. So I really don't care how much you missed.

[quote]This 'both sides' stuff is disingenuous[/quote]

I member a time that there was actually a deal, and that ridiculous wall wasn't build yet. And in the wake of that deal, families wedding parties just blew up because suicide terrorism. And when the Palestinian governement was urged to look into this, the thing was that they couldn't control it.

I also remember a time long ago, when there was first talk of a 2 state proposition, but the Palestinians allied themselves with the armies that tried to whipe Israel of the map, because that was just a better option I guess.

This fantasy that the political body in Palestine is just outside the realm of critique because of a power inbalance? Well, I don't agree with that. Diplomacy, on both sides on diffrent moments have all been wrecked all for their own personal gains. It wasn't once sided, and that's why we have a mess today where both sides are at eachothers throats and no of the two wants to make a deal. And then you have an international community that just want this crap to stop because they see the horror on TV now and then, but what they don't get is that if both sides are unwilling to make a deal, that there isn't going to be one.

Kwek00 · 41-45, M

@Burnley123
[quote]@Kwek00 Which itself was retaliation for ethnic cleansing in East Jerusalem.[/quote]

What people on here keep trying to sell, is because of this East Jeruzalem situation, we can have a blind spot when a side just randomly starts shooting rockets over a border to make as much casualties as possible.

You can handle this in so manny diffrent ways, but I guess shooting rockets over a border to make what ever casualty you can is the way to earn some respect and get the international community to look into this case again and support you? ... At least, in fantasyland, that is the case.

[quote]Count is right in that when one side has all the power (and commits 80%+ of the violence BTW) a reductive 'both sudesism' makes no sense.[/quote]

Only if you look at the casualties, not at the violence used.

[quote]If you are gonna have an Oslo Accords style peace process (I see nothing more viable), then the side with the power needs to comply with it, this tine. This won't happen while Israel is given money, weapons and diplomatic cover from the world's superpower.[/quote]

If you can actually make a new treaty that is clear for everyone and enforce it this time around, then what's the problem? But to do this, both sides need to sit at the table make an agreement AND THEN the international community really has to do their jobs. That means that if Israel would break the accords, they would be punished. And that knife slices both ways. But you need to make an agreement first.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Kwek00 I'm not repeating my moral and strategic criticisms of Hamas because I don't need to.

I think blaming the Palestians for bad government and conditions in Gaza and the West Bank is beyond ridiculous. Given the blockade and the periodic bombing, its a challenge to survive and have any kind of society at all.

The main point, which you keep taking past, is that the two sides equivalency argument makes no sense when one side has the power. An occupied people in third world conditions vrs an occupying force miliatily and economically backed by a superpower.

The settlements and bullying of Palestianians long predated Hamas coming to power and would continue if the Palestinians had different people in charge. The both sides ism here shuts down the possibility of the international community bringing serious pressure to bear on the dominant antagonist.