A big issue I have with certain forms of socialism

If you are born with a disability or condition, become injured in sport or war or develop something in old age through no fault of your own whilst being a productive, healthy member of society, I completely understand socialised healthcare for such people if they have paid into it.

However, I find something immoral about the idea of someone who has put a lot of money into exercise equipment/gym and healthy food, and time into exercising and preparing healthy meals, to then have to pay for the surgery of someone in their 40s who has just had heart failure as a direct result of going to mcdonalds every day and their only exercise being a couple minute walk to the cinema. Money that he could have put into the healthier man's children, or his hobbies, or into a business.

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whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

Universal Health care should be universal. What you see as inequity will always exist. But it should exist in the contributions the healthy man pays through his taxes if anything. We can make the same argument for people who suffer health issues from Drug abuse. The fact is treating them promptly and effectively is usually going to be overall cheaper for the community thatn waiting for it to get worse.

helenS · 36-40, F

@whowasthatmaskedman [quote]Universal Health care should be universal. [/quote]
Absolutely agree with you. What about skiers, for example? What they do is risky, so why would society pay for their stay in a hospital.
Or pregnant women - pregnancy is certainly a health risk; what put money into her,
[quote]Money that could have been put into the healthier man's children, or his hobbies, or into a business.[/quote]
as the original poster said.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS Pregnant women allow a population to grow and increase its economy..

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve By the same logic older people are "useless eaters".

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS Why are they? Look at Japanese culture. Even the very old and frail have been known to go out and help the younger generations en masse in emergencies. And even if they do have some sort of infirmity, their minds are still there. And why are you quote marking something I never said? I know socialists that use that word.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@helenS You cant draw a line. There can be no exceptions. Those who can ski are more likely to come from families with higher incomes and pay more taxe. Or pay sales fax on equipment. That is as close as you can get to equity. Ask yourself the cost to the community is someone is left with a permanent disability due to a skiing accident.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@whowasthatmaskedman Who put you in charge? Japan has some nationalised health service (the government pays 70% of costs) but they put a tax on obesity.
There is a cost to the community if a productive person, productive enough to amass enough wealth to afford ski trips, does not have their injury treated.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@helenS The older people still in the West provide babysitting, and support for the younger working people. But I do like the way this has moved form an individual "I do my share. let them look after themselves" discussion to a community and society based one. Getting that theme back into it, is how progress will be made.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@pianoplayingsteve I am glad I am not in charge.. There are discussions here on a sugar tax of foods containing excessive sugar and a junk food tax. I support both. But the Lobbies of the producers of both donate a lot to government election funds. Sound familiar?

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@whowasthatmaskedman Oh indeed. To me, things are not black and white at all, whilst most people want to make it so. I read into things a lot and try to find the good points from all sides.

I'm in this awkward boat where I want less government control as I do think it leads to despotism, but then I am in favour of the sugar tax and things like that.

This is why I try and go halfway. I believe that in cutting the NHS for certain people I describe, we have a situation where less people will be fat or otherwise unhealthy, the productive keep more of their labour, and the government has not expanded its power at all. Win, win, win.

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve Maybe you should just play your piano.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS That's a non answer. I also work in the medical community (actual medicine, not a janitor), I have my own company built from the ground up and I am a body builder. But yes, I know nothing about economics and health.

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve How good are you, as a piano player, please?

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS I have seven diplomas in piano performance, one in music performance, I'm working to become an associate teacher of the London College of Music, I have a contract with three music teaching companies and I built my own music company from nothing.

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve Fantastic! Can you play Ravel's "Gaspard de la nuit"?

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS I can play anything I'd like if given the sheet music.

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve Finally I've found something I can connect to.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS What?

helenS · 36-40, F

@pianoplayingsteve Your piano playing.
There's a Frank Zappa album "Shut up and play your guitar", if you know what I mean.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@helenS Not really, no.

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@pianoplayingsteve Actually we agree in principle. The world is not black and white. But sdaly some govt policy has to be to prevent exceptions being made both for and against. Or Bias creeps in. I places like refugee visas you can afford to go case by case. But when it comes to who gets treatment for what. It HAS to be equal for all..

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@whowasthatmaskedman Why does it? Then why not make everything else equal?

whowasthatmaskedman · 70-79, M

@pianoplayingsteve Because some things, like political or religious views are optional. Or choices of convenience. Getting sick or injured is not. Neither is race. And pretty much every civilised country has are least laws on the books to protect against discrimination on race, even if the enforcement needs work. So if I have a broken hip or need a kidney, my wealth, ability to pay, or the colour of my skin should not be a factor.