Sinn Fein had the IRA. The Republican Party has their own "IRA" (militias, ProudBoys, Boogalloo, etc.)

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I doubt that my granddad would have consciously condoned killing or cruelty; but many Protestant folk genuinely feared that Catholicism (with its big no-birth-control families and with practices he - and I - would find unacceptable) could be intent on becoming a majority and taking over. Bear in mind it wasn't all that many generations earlier that there had been real bloody wars on the British mainland, over religious choice. What was happening in Ireland would do nothing to quiet any fears. I think people like grandpa likely saw the Orange Order as a bulwark; a demonstration of staunch Protestant solidarity rather than a potential militia. Some others on both sides were street thugs glad of an excuse to bash at each other.

Oh, Rudyard Kipling - not a pacifist by any means! Some stirring martial verse. If you were a navy man wouldn't you love
'[i]The strength of twice three thousand horse that serve the one command[/i]'.
Yet he wrote what became the Boy Scouts hymn; patriotic yes but with lines like

[i]'Teach me delight in simple things,
and mirth that has no bitter strings'[/i]

A hypocrite or just a complex human, born of his time?

@Really I don't disagree. But "the greater good" is how people have been able to ignore atrocities as "enemy propaganda" or as a "necessary evil". And if you know the history of the order it was very much a religious crusade organization. People forget the protestant side started with Dutch and Scots religious fanatics and mercenaries and the British crown very much used the religious extremism for their own geopolitical goals. I think a modern equivalent would be the US trying to us Bin Laden to screw with the Soviets to advance US foreign policy. Now I am not trying to blame Protestant Irish for actions in the 1600s but that is the events that created a mess that has gone on for generations.

In NI the Order also marches with the UDA and other so called loyalist militias so there is no illusions there to my mind of what it was about.

And I brought up Kipling on purpose. He was tied both to Scouting which I benefited from a child but he is also the same man who White Man's Burden and supported military officers responsible for massacres in India.

Honestly I think in all of the cases here it is not about hypocrisy but the level to which indoctrination can drive a person to justify horrible things.

I remember in the 90s reading an article that suggested that a part of what led to the end of the Troubles was the internet. For the first time really in forever people from both sides saw that people in other countries coexist just fine and done kill each other in the street over what church you attend.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow [quote][i].... the level to which indoctrination can drive a person to justify horrible things[/i][/quote]

A good point. I look back on my youth, my then-encultured intolerance & nationalistic jingoism with embarrassment. Besides being amazed now, that my thinking could change so much over a lifeteime, I often wonder what factors determine whether a person either succumbs to indoctrination & bad example, or rebels against it. I don't mean as a result of growth by life experience, but by conscious decision in early adulthood. Generally alcoholics are said to produce alcoholic children but I had relatives whose father was a roaring drunk and they grew up absolute abstainers.

@Human1000 sure, but you could also have drawn a much more apt comparison. Unionist paramilitaries were also supported by political parties and politicians, I mean, just witness Ian Paisley.

@basilfawlty89 Basil - :) - Apologies if I misunderstand the intent of your post, apparently addressed to me. I don't think I've been doing what you call [i]"comparing between the colonialism and oppression Irish Catholics faced and some WASPs on a power trip where they just want to continue exploiting people"[/i]

I'm sorry and sad if you thought you saw that in my comments. Finding them offensive would be your own choice to make or reject. I have no reason to try & offend you. But I would like to point out that not all Protestants, or even most, are out to exploit (Catholic?) people. I doubt that more of them per capita are power trippers than others. And they're not even all White, Anglo or Saxon.

I do believe that deliberate attempts at reconciliation while seeking to understand the human roots of past wrongs is best.

@Human1000 NATO is a relic of the past and should have been tossed on the dustbin of history almost 30 years ago. The only people nervous were the political class. Chomsky is not the only one who has made this observation.

I mentioned Suez to illustrate how both the US and British Empires both felt entitled to resources in foreign lands thousands of miles from their home country yet then consider them as their property. Even Obama in a speech once referred to Alberta oil as as part of American domestic oil. Completely ignoring the fact Alberta is in a different country.



Actually that is how it is in most countries. Most US bases are in place the US effectively conquered. And the only places the US has ever left are places they were kicked out of.

And because of "agreements" signed at the end of WW2 Germany, Japan, and Italy will probably never be free of occupation.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow While I don’t share all these opinions, I wanted to thank you for sharing them. There are dark forces afoot, and we stand opposed to the new march of fascism. It is time to take sides, and while there never will be total agreement, we must keep an eye to the larger goal of defeating these dark forces. Take care, and stay safe...

@Human1000 On that we absolutely agree.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I think you mean caused by or a result of Brits but also the Protestant choke hold in Stormont, no?

First Nations got nowhere in the US. Can't speak to what happened in Canada, but the US committed genocide before putting them in land ghettos where they still suffer.

@Human1000 I am saying if it had not been for Bloody Sunday the events in NI probably would have tracked closer to that of the Civil Rights movement in the US. In fact that is what inspired the protest that resulted in the massacre.


Short term I would agree with you but Leonard Pelletier and more recently the Water Protectors are what got the current generations interested in allying themselves with First Nations groups and supporting their causes.


In Canada we have made a bit more progress in recent years ironically because of overreactions by the government in the 90s in particular. I mean the government deployed more troops to fight over a luxury golf course in Oka then they deployed to Yugoslavia. Even the most checked out person at the time saw that as a bit over the top.

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I'll be more carful if I attempt such an analogy again. I appreciate your perspective and information.