Trump is going to win this!

@Adrift That seems to suggest he did actually win then, whether the detail of what you say is accurate or not.

@Adrift
What do you mean about union workers?

The pipeline was always on shaky ground, not only from the potential local environmental disaster due to a leak, etc., but as a means of continuing to support the energy forms which have helped get us to the *global* catastrophe we are facing.

And why don't you get upset about BC? One province to the sea instead of a whole set of states?

@Adrift This pipeline was always going to be a help to Canada. The jobs for Americans were short term. They built it then that's it. Canada needed a pipeline to get to the gulf, railroad transportation was dangerous[it did destroy a town in Canada]. Having said that, it should have been built

@SomeMichGuy Environmental leak, is it easier to shut off a pipeline that is being monitored or clean up an oil spill in the ocean. Oil will still be needed so where will it be coming from?

@Adrift Oil is needed less and less, and even the companies in it know this. The Keystone XL pipeline was more for Canada to get its oil elsewhere...

Pro-old energy ppl like you usually understand what fracking has done in terms of domestic supply...

We need to move away from fossil fuels. Trump lost. Elections have consequences.

Feel free to go to a more polluting country, like China or India.

@Adrift How is my suggesting that you move to a country more aligned with your notions me being...as you said? It would make you happier, because the country (and world) have to move away from fossil fuels. It isn't a joke that climate change really is the biggest planetary threat we currently face (other than reactionary-[i]cum[/i]-insurgent extremists, because their existence poses a threat to truth, science, and handling these threats with a clear mind & sober judgment).

I answered that oil is coming from fracking. And even that will go away.

You understimate the problems of a spill on the land...and the relationship of the land to the water.

Do you know where the Canadian oil comes from? Do you know about the environmental disaster of the tailing ponds?

And you are talking about union jobs for a short time, not enduring jobs. Do you think it is great to have cheap shanty towns arise on the plains, gouge the union workers after they have been pulled from their families, and use them hard then drop them? How about infrastructure jobs to employ workers closer to home/at home? The infrastructure rebuilding which is going to start with Biden will give all kinds of union jobs for a longer time and with payoff to many more Americans than the XL pipeline.

Do you want what is best for them or are you a former Keystone profiteer?

@SomeMichGuy Are you Canadian or do you regularly speak to anyone that lives there and is affected by this?
2. what makes you think China is more aligned with my notions when you dont even know me. Alot of quick of assumptions made don't ya think?
Btw you must know that this "green deal" has less to do with the environment and more to do with some financial deal since lithium is a non renewable source that has to be mined.
whats the plan on dealing with all those dead non recyclable electric car batteries?
China doesn't want our trash and e waste anymore.
California's rolling blackouts should be proof that solar without a battery back up system doesnt work.
BTW I have actually had solar.

@Adrift Yes I have good friends who used to work in the Albertan energy industry.

You seem to be oblivious to the problems of old energy, so China & India seem much better suited to you. Admittedly assumptions, but people going on about oil & gas...smh

Of course the entire life cycle needs to be considered...it's actually those sorts of considerations which need to be taken into account for old energy, as well (including the "financial deals"). And of course we should deal with our own waste.

Li is element #3, yes, glad you figured that out...but you clearly miss the point of the green deal...you are completely sweeping production under the rug.

California's rolling blackouts were imposed by the power company...due to capacity problems. If you are advocating for more local storage & production, then you should be happy about green, renewable production of energy, since it is far easier to do with green energy.

Glad you had solar...did you use acid batteries or something else, or net metering?

@SomeMichGuy you bring bring up some points but your condescending tone in the way you speak makes me want to turn a deaf ear and give you then ass side of the mule. If you get my drift.
Not going to come to any compromises that way.
There are quite a few good resources other than solar.
Geothermal is one steam, methane ect..
Those panels and batteries have to be replaced and are pretty expensive to maintain.
I have a nice burn scar on my hand I got to remind me of the time we had no power due to relying on solar.
Thank you.

@Adrift You talk to me aboit making assumptions and think I have no idea that Li is an element? lmao

Sorry if being shown that you were misrepresenting the green deal by totally ignoring the supply side seems "condescending".

Geothermal...depends on what you mean. The Sun shines pretty much everywhere--outside of the Artic & Antarctic Circles at specific times--and wind is pretty ubiquitous.

Steam...this is how nuclear, coal, etc., work now.

Methane is great, should be used more, is great for farmers.

Panels & batteries DO require maintenance & replacement. Panel technology has improved a lot in terms of both cost and efficiency, esp. depending upon when you had it.

I'm sorry you got burned but I have no idea what a burn has to do with not having solar...?

@SomeMichGuy winter no sun, no heat, no power. Heating water on a a stove.
My problem is, that we rely on these politicians to tell us what is good for us and most of them are in eachothers pockets.
Not one of them has given us straight answers.
What is the agenda and why is it being pushed?
I doubt it has anything to do with the environment.

@Adrift No Sun? Less direct Sun doesn't mean no Sun. But this is why solar engineering exists...to do site surveys, size the system properly, etc. Not all locations are good for generating solar, but increased panel efficiency (& lower cost) is helping that.

You hit on a key: if you are going to rely solely on l9cal generation, you need a to have a system with both a properly-sized storage component as well as a properly-sized generation component. People need to realize that, going in.

You got burned heating water on a stove? So that is the fault of solar energy...?

I don't rely on pomiticians because they typically have backgrounds in either business or law (or the military), so they often do not understand science, and often think that everything is negotiable.

I think for myself but take in information from experts in the field, something our last President didn't do.

@SomeMichGuy I knew a guy who ran his entire house on a geo thermal envelope system that he built himself. This science and technology was around way before you were. Too bad they dont seem to teach real science in schools anymore.
BTW, I was a kid when this happened and yes it was because the solar failed.
I love how people use the word science as their buzz word, when most people dont even know well enough,how or what a virus is.
Smuh!

@Adrift
Great for your friend! I'd love to see your his design, to see what it involved, how efficient it was, how it might be used & improved. It sounds great.

RE: The timing of the tech he used, I am not sure how you know that, but which tech do you mean?

I have seen water- and air-based systems using heat in the earth, and heat pumps used to be used here in lower Mich. in the 1970s, and were abandoned. But your friend's system sounds intriguing!

Science in K-12 suffers, as do math, etc., from beimg initially taught by very inexpert people. The US educational system is still affected by the 19th century in a bad way; generalists are ok for important courses even though they don't understand what kids should be learning to point them where they should be at the end of that bit of their journey.

I guess you are trying to impugn my background, which you don't know, but I studied engineering & physics at a great school, and have been taught by Nobel Prizewinners. I am not unfamiliar with science.

Yeah, many people don't know about viruses. Sorry about your hand.

@SomeMichGuy funny about my friend but when he showed engineers and architects his plan, they said it couldn't be done. So hes the kind of guy that said I will do it myself and he did. It took over twenty years but he made it happen. I'll bet people would be interested into looking at his designs now that its working.
Since you guys are so clever, I hear Texas is having some problems with their green energy, you think you can fix it?