Do you owe society anything beyond paying your taxes, such as having children?

Furthermore, what is the bare minimum an individual should feel obligated to give back to society?

Amount aside, should taxation even be required? How about military service?

At what point has one given enough to their country?

Do you think your society or country has been especially good to you?

Feel free to opine, debate and discuss.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

I support a progressive tax system and would make it more progressive.

Renumeratiom rates are, at best, a weak indicator of how much someone contributes to society. Wealth is produced by collective endeavor but its those with ownership and social status who take the most of it. Nobody is gonna convince me that a hedge fund manager produces more value than a factory worker.

We need to develop a more collective and less individualed way of conceiving of society and contributions. So many right libertarians are completely unaware of how much they have benefited from the state. I also think we need to shift taxation focus away from income and onto wealth. Its where the greatest inequalities lay and its increasing all the time.

This is all about the best ways to use the state in a conventional sense (social democratic). My ideal. Society would have worker cooperatives dominating and a strong democratic state to organise things. We are a long way from that in the UK and elswhere.

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@Burnley123 I'm a social democrat as well, but I honestly think we can and should decrease taxation across the board by cutting wasteful spending such as the bloated defense (war) budget and perhaps pulling back on some foreign aid, however small that may be.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@GeistInTheMachine Not to be pedantic but Im a demicratic socialist lol. Its why I put the last paragraph in but im sure we would agree on a lot.

Im in favour of cuts in military budget here in the UK and in America, i know your military budget is huge.

Its not about how much you tax, its more about who you tax. If you can find a way to go after wealth and corporate tax evasion, that would be a game changer. It wouod beed a genuine international effort.

The nordic countries do have high taxes on everyone, especially for the middle class. For that, they get a fantastic welfare state. Unfortunately, without huge systemic change to power structures, you need a high progressive income tax to fund social democracy imo.

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@Burnley123 Yeah, I get what you're saying and mostly agree.

I've always agreed on a lot with you.

Indeed, there is a lot of confusion here in the US between social democrat and democratic socialism. Thanks to Sanders, I think (Despite how important and great he has been. It's a shame what they did to him.)

I get why he used the two interchangeably, likely as a political strategy to get the socialist label out there and neutralize it to some of the electorate so that he can't be smeared with it as easily.

I don't know If I'm a democratic socialist, per se, but I agree with much of their ideals.

I oscillate on the anti-capitalist stuff. I don't know that it's inherently evil, but just the way its run, if that makes any sense. But the socialists do have compelling arguments.

Both fortunately and unfortunately I've largely checked out of politics.

I know that by international standards I'm either a centrist or perhaps even center-right on certain issues, but by American standards, I'm considered to be a damned commie bleeding heart liberal, even though I dislike both so-called liberals (largely neoliberals) and communists.

Anyway, it's a clusterfuck here. You know it, and I know it. I'm sure I don't have to tell you.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@GeistInTheMachine Its a mess here too. Don't get me wrong, i am a social democrat in functional terms. Its definately the only viable next step. I think the crossover points are 1) Demicratic socialists have more of a critique of power. Marxist leaning analysis etc and 2) We think keynesianism is better but not enough ultimately. I moved to the left in my thirties for various reasons but the biggest one is capitalism and climate change.

I was active here as part of the Corbyn movement in labour but i wont be as involved now he has gone. The energy now is with protest movements, like blm.

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@Burnley123 They have BLM in the UK? Is it as derided as it is over here? I know that you guys don't have the same level of cop worship that we do here.

I used to take a great interest in UK politics because my ex was from there, and I had plans of moving there in the future.

It's a different beast for sure, but I can't help but think that you guys seem so tame compared to the clusterfuck we have here in the US.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@GeistInTheMachine Yes blm is also big here. The police are racist but much yes militirised. Big history of racism though and there is a video on my pinned post that explains it.

N.b i have an americam ex and was once planning to move over there!

GeistInTheMachine · 31-35, M

@Burnley123 You dodged a bullet with that one, my friend!

...Perhaps even literally, knowing this country.

Ha!

I'd still like to visit the UK one day. I wanted to remain on good terms with my ex, since it was a relationship of 5 years, but it was just impossible. Too bad.

What puts me off from living there is their stance against psychoactive substances like kratom, CBD and others. Such as herbal things and supplements.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@GeistInTheMachine I know I dodged the bullet but for different reasons than what you mean! 😜