Do statues tell us anything about history?

@revenant When you are doing selfreflection, do you think that Britain has to talk about China? Are there anny Mao-statues that need to be removed in London soon?

@revenant How do you know?

Such a lame whataboutery argument.

@Kwek00 why don't black people talk about the new colonialism, why attack those who do not do anything to them ?

@Burnley123 know what ? no am saying that the left is kind of wuss, never daring to speak about bigger issues

@revenant Why does it even matter in this specific context?

@revenant BTW, this is kind of a big issue. You just don't seem to want to talk about it

@Kwek00 ah yes because it does matter. It is exactly like feminists complaining about mansplaining and bs like that but would never dare touch women under islam !

@revenant [quote]know what ? no am saying that the left is kind of wuss, never daring to speak about bigger issues[/quote]

Don't we? Geez, I'm sorry. Though maybe if I did talk about a 'bigger issues' (than the history of colonialism, empire, and slavery) some wilfully ignorant alt-right leaning person would still question my priorities. 🤦‍♀️

I'm too much of a wuss to tackle big issues though, so I guess we'll never know.

@Burnley123 I do not follow you and I am not attacking you personally but the leftist movement in general.Which by now is pretty marxist let 's say it. And yes they never dare when they feel something is going to really annihilate them

@revenant This story has a movie about colonial statues in the streets of the UK. And she gives her opinion about what it's about, and adds some socialist rhetoric to it... because 🤷‍♂️. The entire idea behind the video is either to give people a narrative, or to spark discussion. This particulair discussion and narrative, is about Western Europe and it's offspring with it's specific past. How that past influences our social enviorment and how that social enviorement eventually influences people that live in it. People like me. So to have a conversation about this, you need to do some introspection. But apperently introspection just ain't that fun, so it's way easier to complain that this story isn't about china, feminists, mansplaining and Islam. 😅 Which is pretty bizar to me.

But if you wanna talk about anny of those toppics, feel free, and start a story. And people will discuss those things. No worries.

@revenant I am part of the leftist movement in general. I'm not offended by your criticism, I'm just offended by its lack of substance.

@Kwek00 slipery slope and what next ? it is Brit land ! what else will they want to destroy ?

@revenant Why is this even a slippery slope?

Do you think that by removing Cecil Rhodes out of the street image, that you are destroying part of England? Why not look at it from a diffrent perspective and see it as a part of outgrowing and comming to terms with a past you had absolutely nothing to do with.

This frantic idea of people today, defending icons of a system that by today standards should be appalling to people... is totally ridiculous. What emotional value does Cecil Rhodes have. When you walk by him with your children, do you go:
"yes kids, this guy was a pretty great guy in his time. But ... well... let's just keep it there.".
- "But what did he do mommy".
"Well he had lots of adventures. The end".

@Kwek00 yes it is part of the movement. Destroy countries, destroy history, destroy families, destroy everything. For what next ?

What is that the left has on its plate ? how do they view the future ?

@Kwek00 the adult way of looking at it is either, "don't care who Rhodes is" (the default view), so he can stay up, or "he exploited people but also gave a massive endowment to a university, so he's a complicated figure".

My concern is pulling down statues of people we find difficult is the easy part, and once the fuss dies down, nothing really changed at all except a lot of plinths are now empty. Most people don't care, or don't have the attention span, to focus on more than the symbol.

Good changes in society (and heaven knows even British society could be less racist than it sometimes is), comes slowly. Pushing radical change (which rightly or wrongly is was topping statues *looks like*) is both harder and more likely to find people fighting it.

Rhodes Must Fall is the hare.

The difficult parts of his and others' legacy is the tortoise.

@revenant I'm what you'd call left. I'm not in any way marxist, neither are any of the 'left' people I know. I do talk about China's expansionism in Africa and other places - I've been watching it particularly over the last decade in multiple countries I visit.

I think it's not helpful to stereotype. We create a left wing or right wing conglomerate of everything stupid we hear and assign it to anyone who is left/right (depending on our bias). It tends to dehumanise and lead to scathing instead of discussion and dialogue.

@Abstraction Then you are in a very small minority, almost non existent even. The whole machine of the left, media, education, propaganda is one of utter hypocrisy and silence.

@revenant
[quote]yes it is part of the movement. Destroy countries, destroy history, destroy families, destroy everything. For what next ?

What is that the left has on its plate ? how do they view the future ?[/quote]

You should seriously change your media diet. Like, how apocalyptic is this narrative.
And it's kinda ironic, that some of these movements give more recognition to the actual history behind these images, then the people that are suddenly super intrested in their own "history".



@Murmurs Pulling down images because people are angry and frustrated, is something that happens from time to time. It's an emotional outburst, it's not productive. Like in this movie, being all pissed and angry, creating a mob, throwing it into the nearby canal where other people will have to get out of over time annyway. Isn't helpfull. And a lot of individuals that do so, are more virtue signaling then actually solving a problem.

So no... being an ass and doing it like this just makes people feel good about themselves instead of actually making them do some introspection. I bet all these people in the youtube video including the one doing the narration, believe that they are above "we" and "them" narratives, because "look what we did". It's all kinda silly.

I think these images belong in a museum, where context can be provided, and where people trully start embracing all of it's history instead of just the romantic images and narratives that have gone along with it. Like my dad still believed that the generation before him was in Congo to create hospitals, roads and schools. And us Belgians only did good things over there. That narrative, has to die, but by going all cwazy and militant SJW rub it in everyones faces, that's not helpefull. You can't kill this image without creating a dialogue and people are just not willing to engage with that level militantism. And the side effect is that you get crazy narratives of people that believe we are on the eve of a race war and the apocalyps. Which doesn't really help to get you where the movement wants to be.

@Kwek00 I do not need media. You see it all around you

@revenant Are you one of those individuals, that came up with all her own ideas just by herself. And suddenly came to a point, where you had a revelation, that we are all doomed now because a group of people have a problem with Cecil Rhodes being portrayed in public. And this is going to totally destroy families, the country, the history, ... EVERYTHING

* DOOM DOOM DOOOOOOOOOOM *

@Kwek00 Strange how this kind of stuff acts like a disease and infects other coumtries so quickly !
Please do not tell anyone that I am also a major journalist 🙂

@revenant The narrative you are putting up here, also spreads with the same speed. And eveywhere it pops up, it's just as senseless, apocalyptic and aimed at killing the conversation. Because for some fucked up reason, white people don't like to talk about these things. They rather talk about things they don't identify with. Like China, Islam and cwazy feminists. Anny toppic that they deem "bad" is better then talking about this particulair issue, because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

@Kwek00 what makes me feel uncomfortable ? what has it got to do with my skin colour ?

@revenant
[quote]slipery slope and [b]what next[/b] ? it is Brit land ! [b]what else will they want to destroy ?
[/b]
[...]

yes it is part of the movement. [b]Destroy countries, destroy history, destroy families, destroy everything. For what next ?[/b][/quote]


This doesn't really spell out "comfortable".

Your first remark:

[quote]yet they would never dare say anything about Africa being pillaged by China now would they ?[/quote]

I soley aimed at killing the conversation. Let's not talk about our past, lets talk about "china".


It has to do with your skin colour, because Black people don't get socialised into saying these things. These narratives are typical for white people. There has actually been studies done in the US, where all these tactics for not talking about this particulair issue have been documented. Altough I don't fully agree with every part of the author I'm going to name, but Robin Diangelo wrote two books about it. this specific tendency in white people, trying to not talk about the elephant in the room was labeled by her as: "White Fragility".

@Kwek00 Why is Japan currently pulling out of China ? do they suffer from white fragility too ?