Do you support Donald Trumps assassination of the Iran General? (I do)
Terrorists must be stopped. Put a line in the sand.
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BlueVeins · 22-25
No, I don't support it. We wouldn't have had this whole problem of Iranian proxies killing US soldiers and contractors if we hadn't invaded Iraq in the first place. The US toppled the government of a sovereign state; we never apologized for it and 200,000 innocent people died at a minimum. So of course the Iranians resisted violently.
The fact is that Soleimani -- despite his moral failings in Aleppo and elsewhere -- was one of our most powerful allies in our fight against ISIS. He fought against Hussein's genocidal campaign against Iran in the '80s which we supported, and he's cooperated with the US against the Taliban following the terrorist attacks of 9/11.
Besides, killing Soleimani was the perfect way to unite the people of Iran against us. Trump's sanctions against Iran, while idiotic from a strategic perspective, succeeded at dividing the country and igniting mass-protests. The regime was flagrantly oppressing everyone and the citizenry was 100% aware of that. 1,500 people were shot in the streets and thousands more were arrested. Nothing unites a people though, quite like the martyrdom of a national figure like that. Did you see the guy's funeral crowd? Absolutely shocking. The last thing we need is the Iranian people rallying behind their murderous fundamentalist government.
The fact is that Soleimani -- despite his moral failings in Aleppo and elsewhere -- was one of our most powerful allies in our fight against ISIS. He fought against Hussein's genocidal campaign against Iran in the '80s which we supported, and he's cooperated with the US against the Taliban following the terrorist attacks of 9/11.
Besides, killing Soleimani was the perfect way to unite the people of Iran against us. Trump's sanctions against Iran, while idiotic from a strategic perspective, succeeded at dividing the country and igniting mass-protests. The regime was flagrantly oppressing everyone and the citizenry was 100% aware of that. 1,500 people were shot in the streets and thousands more were arrested. Nothing unites a people though, quite like the martyrdom of a national figure like that. Did you see the guy's funeral crowd? Absolutely shocking. The last thing we need is the Iranian people rallying behind their murderous fundamentalist government.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@BlueVeins While I’m on the other side of the fence on this topic - I don’t want Iranians dictating the terms of escalation with impunity - the political aspects of this event inside Iran should not be underestimated.
Likely unintentionally, between scrapping the Iran deal and killing Soleimani, Trump has basically saved Iran’s hardline leadership - humiliating moderates who surged into power after forty years of extremism, and solving their issues with internal unrest. Oh, and short of a US invasion and occupation, a nuclear Iran is virtually guaranteed now.
It’s weird that people who stoked and rode old fashioned reactionary nationalism don’t seem to understand that it is a hugely powerful force in Iranian domestic politics as well - and they have just reinvigorated it.
Likely unintentionally, between scrapping the Iran deal and killing Soleimani, Trump has basically saved Iran’s hardline leadership - humiliating moderates who surged into power after forty years of extremism, and solving their issues with internal unrest. Oh, and short of a US invasion and occupation, a nuclear Iran is virtually guaranteed now.
It’s weird that people who stoked and rode old fashioned reactionary nationalism don’t seem to understand that it is a hugely powerful force in Iranian domestic politics as well - and they have just reinvigorated it.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@QuixoticSoul I agree with what you're saying about the moderates vs the hardliners, and I'll admit that the "escalation with impunity" issue is... a point of considerable confliction for me. But I don't think a nuclear Iran is close to guaranteed. While many of the deal's provisions are now dead, Iran still has IAEA inspectors in its borders and they haven't given up the anti-WMD provision, specifically. If Iran decided to develop a nuke now, they would risk the entire international community figuring it out and probably universally sanctioning them to Hell like North Korea.
Their breakout time is decreasing quickly though, which is similarly dangerous to the future of geopolitics. I guess our best bet is that one of the Democratic candidates will win in 2020 and rejoin the JCPOA before anything more permanent happens.
Their breakout time is decreasing quickly though, which is similarly dangerous to the future of geopolitics. I guess our best bet is that one of the Democratic candidates will win in 2020 and rejoin the JCPOA before anything more permanent happens.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul Iran is not dictating anything. The US is the one that whacked a foreign leader like a mob family.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Iran-managed militias have been rocketing our bases. We tend to ignore it. One barrage killed a contractor, in response we struck some of the militias. In response to that they laid a siege of our embassy. The point in these kinds of situations is to provoke an over-response - because we [i]do[/i] have to respond when our people get killed or attacked. The goal is that our reprisal will be overwrought and turn Iraqis against us. Pretty standard stuff. Problem is, in this situation, Iran has the initiative, and can basically make us dance. Or leave.
Instead of carrying out more strikes against Iran’s proxies, we took out the person managing the whole program. I actually think it was a rather inspired move.
Instead of carrying out more strikes against Iran’s proxies, we took out the person managing the whole program. I actually think it was a rather inspired move.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul You mean the same kind of militias Saudi Arabia and Turkey publicly brag about supporting? But we are supposed to believe it is Iran because Mikey Pompoms says so? The guy who does not even understand the sectarian dynamic in the region?
And by the way the USA funds and backs similar groups in countries all around the world so even if it was true the moral high ground argument is a joke.
And by the way the USA funds and backs similar groups in countries all around the world so even if it was true the moral high ground argument is a joke.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow It is Iran. Nobody is actually hiding this, least of all Iran. Remember who the other major occupant of that car was.
Yes, we do the same thing all over the world, as do other powers. Iran is not doing anything we aren’t - but we [i]are[/i] in conflict. It’s not about ethics - geopolitics stuff usually isn’t, except for the rhetoric meant for mass consumption.
Yes, we do the same thing all over the world, as do other powers. Iran is not doing anything we aren’t - but we [i]are[/i] in conflict. It’s not about ethics - geopolitics stuff usually isn’t, except for the rhetoric meant for mass consumption.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul Again you have one idiot's word on that. Even though it defies logic. Like I said Saudi Arabia and Turkey brag about owning the terrorists in the region. Also Iraq has made it very clear Iran is welcome in their country and America is not.
So what start a war that will go on for decades over bravado?
So what start a war that will go on for decades over bravado?
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow I’m not sure what you’re arguing about here tbh.
[quote] Again you have one idiot's word on that. Even though it defies logic.[/quote] I’m not taking Trump’s word for anything here. Soleimani’s role or strategy was never a secret, in any way. He was downright flamboyant about it.
And yes, Iran has been doing a bang-up job of our maneuvering us in Iran ever since we took out the iron-fisted Sunni leadership under Saddam.
[quote] Again you have one idiot's word on that. Even though it defies logic.[/quote] I’m not taking Trump’s word for anything here. Soleimani’s role or strategy was never a secret, in any way. He was downright flamboyant about it.
And yes, Iran has been doing a bang-up job of our maneuvering us in Iran ever since we took out the iron-fisted Sunni leadership under Saddam.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul Literally the first we heard of Iran being behind these militias was from Mike Pompeo when he claimed Iran was funding ISIS which makes about as much sense as the Pope funding the UDA in NI.
When Suleimani was whacked he was actually meeting with Saudis to come to some sort of truce with their proxies.
Lol. Americans think in news cycles. I am sorry but this goes back all the way to the 90s when the CIA convinced the Shia in Iraq to revolt and then left them to be massacred. Like the Kurds they haven't trusted the US for decades. At best the US is regarded as a means to an end. And it also does not change the fact that the majority in the country told the US to get the hell out. The Trump Administration is completely ignoring them and arrogantly demanded that Iraq pay the bill for US imperialism for their sovereignty back. You think that will garner good will?
When Suleimani was whacked he was actually meeting with Saudis to come to some sort of truce with their proxies.
Lol. Americans think in news cycles. I am sorry but this goes back all the way to the 90s when the CIA convinced the Shia in Iraq to revolt and then left them to be massacred. Like the Kurds they haven't trusted the US for decades. At best the US is regarded as a means to an end. And it also does not change the fact that the majority in the country told the US to get the hell out. The Trump Administration is completely ignoring them and arrogantly demanded that Iraq pay the bill for US imperialism for their sovereignty back. You think that will garner good will?
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow No, this is not the first time we’ve heard about Iran’s Iraqi proxies.
[quote] In 2006, at the height of the bloodshed in Iraq, Soleimani took a break from managing Asaib and its sister groups in order to supervise another Iranian proxy, Hezbollah, in its escalating war with Israel. During his absence, U.S. commanders in the Green Zone noted a sharp decline in casualties across the country. Upon his return from Lebanon, Soleimani wrote to U.S. commanders, “I hope you have been enjoying the peace and quiet in Baghdad. I’ve been busy in Beirut!”[/quote]
From a rather excellent write-up on Soleimani’s career by West Point’s faculty.
The other major player in the car was Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, whose role is also not really in dispute.
[quote] In 2006, at the height of the bloodshed in Iraq, Soleimani took a break from managing Asaib and its sister groups in order to supervise another Iranian proxy, Hezbollah, in its escalating war with Israel. During his absence, U.S. commanders in the Green Zone noted a sharp decline in casualties across the country. Upon his return from Lebanon, Soleimani wrote to U.S. commanders, “I hope you have been enjoying the peace and quiet in Baghdad. I’ve been busy in Beirut!”[/quote]
From a rather excellent write-up on Soleimani’s career by West Point’s faculty.
The other major player in the car was Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, whose role is also not really in dispute.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@QuixoticSoul Well if it is in an American newpaper it must be true. And West Point is totally impartial. lol
And it still does not change the fact that both under US and international law extra judicial assassinations of military officials is not legal.
It also ignores the fact that it tells the world anyone who does not like the US all US generals or intelligence officiers are fair targets at any time.
Just like after the "we tortured some folks" fiasco any American who believes their opponents will abide by the Geneva conventions now is an idiot.
And it still does not change the fact that both under US and international law extra judicial assassinations of military officials is not legal.
It also ignores the fact that it tells the world anyone who does not like the US all US generals or intelligence officiers are fair targets at any time.
Just like after the "we tortured some folks" fiasco any American who believes their opponents will abide by the Geneva conventions now is an idiot.