@room101 Fashion is more than just what gets defined for a runway walk in Milan.
Fashion is an expression of you.
Imagine if we declared that what you are wearing right now is outlawed? (assuming of course you aren't sitting alone and naked in your mother's basement)
If we consider fashion to be a trend adopted by a given group of people for a given period of time then indeed, everything we do and say and wear can fall into that categorisation.
However, I would argue that applying the term "fashion" to religion, and all of its associated traditions, demeans the strength that religion wealds. Furthermore, I disagree that the garb illustrated in the opening post is an “expression of you”. As I have already stated elsewhere, to me, it is the expression of an oppressive regime and ideology.
As to what I'm wearing (or not) being outlawed etc., what I'm wearing (or not) has not been forced upon me by any external sources. It does not represent the decrees of a dominant segment of my community. It does not undermine the freedoms of expression of a subservient segment of my community.
If we consider fashion to be a trend adopted by a given group of people for a given period of time then indeed, everything we do and say and wear can fall into that categorisation.
A lot of it is, yeah - and also social conventions, accepted schools of intellectual thought, prevailing mores, etc, etc. A lot of human experience is made up of various social trends, some more long-running than others. Fashion is hugely important in human culture, in no way do I demean its strength.
In general, in America, we've gone some ways in letting people be various sorts of goofballs, and by and large it's worked out for the best. Why fuck with what's not broken?
As to what I'm wearing (or not) being outlawed etc., what I'm wearing (or not) has not been forced upon me by any external sources. It does not represent the decrees of a dominant segment of my community. It does not undermine the freedoms of expression of a subservient segment of my community.
Everything you say here can be said about these outfits too:
But somehow, we developed the sort of nuance necessary to differentiate between relatively harmless goofballs like the Mennonites, Amish, Starovery, Orthodox Jews, etc - and, say, crazed polygamist cults that we have to rescue women from.
@QuixoticSoul "But somehow, we developed the sort of nuance necessary to differentiate between relatively harmless goofballs like the Mennonites, Amish, Starovery, Orthodox Jews, etc - and, say, crazed polygamist cults that we have to rescue women from."
I'm not on some mission to rescue women from anything. However, I do find the wearing of everything from the hijab to the burka as being offensive to my sensibilities concerning female equality. And yes, I would like to see these outfits removed from societies the world over. Not just America.
@room101 Yes, telling women what they can’t wear because it offends you is definitely a step forward for female equality and freedom 🤔
Sometimes people will make lifestyle choices you don’t agree with, especially when it comes to what sort of religious nonsense they follow. Protecting that right is one of the foundations of Western society, and is what separates us from shitholes where niqabs are mandated by law.
@QuixoticSoul My distinction is that I'm not telling women what they can and can't wear. I'm telling the men, who impose those rules on women, that they can't impose said rules.
Of course, a possible rebuttal to my stance could be that the women themselves make those lifestyle choices. My experiences of the Islamic faith makes it hard for me to accept this rebuttal.
@room101 Let’s abandon the ad hominem attacks. Apologies for my snark from yesterday.
I simply find your stance to this to be interesting in that you are interested is using laws to prohibit behavior so that you can protect women.
However, there are laws that exist now that many women object to that allow men to dress in a way that is not allowed for women.
Is the burka extreme? Yup. Sure is. Are there some women who are effectively forced to wear it? Absolutely. Are there many women who wear it by choice? Yes.
All I am asking is where you draw the line. It seems that your position on this is biased towards euro-centric sensibilities.
@JoeyFoxx I disagree. My stance has nothing to do with Euro-centric or any other sensibilities. Other than that stated ie the freedom and equality of women in each and every society.
If I were to meet a woman who convinced me that she wears the hijab because of her deeply felt religious beliefs and not because of the generations old coercion by her male counterparts, then so be it. After all, I would not object to a nun wearing her nuns habit.
And that's the distinction. A nun in contemporary society is a nun by choice. She wears what she wears because she has made the choice to be a nun.
@room101 In a contemporary Western society, devout religious women remain so by choice - protected by law and police.
As for generations-old coercion, welcome to the world of religion, that’s basically all of them in a nutshell 🤷♂️
And yes, parents brainwash the shit out of their kids like they were brainwashed by their parents, and that’s allowed - but as long as people are ultimately free to do as they want as adults, we accept it as, well, parenting.
@JoeyFoxx @QuixoticSoul In essence, you are both asking the same questions ie how do we decide that we will accept this religious behaviour and/or garb but not that? Where do we draw the line?
For me, it's very simple. I ask myself what goes with those practices, what are they in their entirety? Are women barred from going out in public unchaperoned? Are women (even in a medical capacity) barred from touching men who are not in their immediate family? Are women banned from carrying out simple activities that we all take for granted? Activities such as driving for example. Are women treated subserviently by law and punished more harshly by law? And so on and so forth.
Bottom line guys, the wearing of the hijab etc is, for me, a physical representation of what I simply cannot abide.
Should I come across another religion, cult, society or whatever that behaves the same way towards its women, I would feel exactly the same way.
@JoeyFoxx The chaperone part (and all of the other restrictions imposed on Muslim women) exists everywhere where a fundamentalist approach to Islam exists. It is not confined to a given nation. For example; Taliban controlled areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan; Daesh controlled areas in Syria and Iraq; Boko Haram controlled areas in various parts of West Africa; Islamic communities throughout Europe; Islamic communities throughout Indonesia........the list goes on and on.
And yes, these restrictions imposed on women are enforced. Regardless of what local laws say. They are enforced by families and by communities as a whole.
Regarding your last sentence, I'm afraid I don't understand. What's "my logic"? Where does "need" come into it? How can one give a numerical value to this supposed need?
