Serious question. Why should illegal immigrants get free health care?

@CopperCicada Exactly. Just denying millions of people health care because you are morally opposed to non-citizens receiving social benefits is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

@CopperCicada Well, conservatives want to put Jesus on the street to die a painful death.

They really want him to just go away so they don't have to look at him dying in the streets, so that will probably end up being the next round of healthcare reform from the GOP.

@daisymay Well that's what's really at the back of this. They just want people to vanish.

@CountScrofula I get wanting to deal with illegal immigration. I'm all for that. But you either deal with a medical problem early when it's cheap, or late when it's expensive. I see the local hospital here sink tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars the same way. Not just undocumented people but poor American citizens.

Medical care? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Well, now you've had a massive heart attack, lost your job, your house, your trade/vocation/business-- now you can get Medicaid. It's covered.

@CountScrofula No they want them to OBRY THE LAWS OF A SOVERIGN COUNTRY. Or are you saying some people can break federal law while others must go to jail for doing just that? In other words you are granting citizens of Angola or the Congo or Mongolia rights that you are deny American citizens?

Finally if you are going to follow your "thinking" and essentially permit an open border then what is the point exactly of anyone applying to enter the United States legally?

As usual thinking, logic and logical thinking and the consequences of you not being able to do either shows up again. I wait now for your usual non-answer that fails to address my point, or answering a question I did not ask.

@Abrienda We either deport illegal immigrants or not.

If we deport them, then their medical problems are not our issue.

If we do not deport them, for whatever complex of social and political reasons, then we are better off dealing with their medical problems sooner than later.

@Abrienda You seem more interested in yelling at and insulting people than you are in engaging in ideas.

If you want me to engage with you write like a grownup.

@CountScrofula if I were to set up residence inside your home the next time you leave for work or go to the store, how long would you want me to stay...using your home, watching your tv, using your wifi, eating your food, drinking your beer, sleeping in your bed??
How long before you would just want me to vanish? 🤔
Would you call me illegal or would I simply be the new undocumented owner of the house?

@easterniowegin My argument still applies.

@CountScrofula finds you inside his home, he either throws you out, or not.

If he throws you out, then your health conditions are really immaterial to him and his well being.

If he doesn't thrown you out, then if you're shitting and vomiting all over the place-- it's a big issue for him. It's in his best interest to help you get that fixed. Or he's getting new carpets. Every week maybe.

The issue of what to do with illegal immigrants (or squatters in people's homes) is a different question than what we do with them if we've allowed them to stay (for whatever reasons, perhaps laziness).

@CountScrofula Let's see. The last time we met you accused me of calling you and your wife mass murderers because she had (supposedly) two miscarriages...when the question was should health care professionals be forced to perform abortions. Is that an example of your "grown up", sophisticated and rational manner I should follow?

Sorry but you are not a role model for anyone.However just like then you have found another creative way to avoid answering a question you are afraid to answer.

@easterniowegin That's a false equivalency and I'm sure you know that.

Illegal immigrants come to the US because there are jobs for them. They work those jobs, which means generating capital for their employers. This makes the economy work. While doing so, they contribute in a manner most regular citizens do by paying into different kinds of taxes. Many illegal immigrants even file taxes with the IRS.

However, as they are undocumented, they have access to FEWER government programs than citizens do.

So they contribute but get less for it.

@Abrienda I'm referring to your tone. In that conversation I was trying to explain how your logic on abortion is inconsistent and gave up trying to reason with you.

The fact you read that as "accused me of calling you mass murderers" is worrisome because that is not what I said or intended.

I'd be super happy to seriously discuss these major issues with you. Perhaps I am wrong about something and could learn from you.

But enough with the outrage and insulting tirades. I'm willing to show you respect if you do the same.

@CountScrofula illegal immigrants do not file taxes without a SNN. Employers are required by federal law to verify each employee's status by filling out an I-9 form and physically seeing and copying an ID (drivers license, passport, birth certificate). No one can legally work in this country without this or a valid greencard.
The fact that employers don't do this...or the fact that illegals commit fraud, only heightens the illegal acts, doesnt legitimize them.

As for your "false equivalency"...what makes it fales in your mind? The incorrect assumption you make abiut paying taxes? The idea that contributing to the cause eases the illegal activity? If i paid to eat your food, while living in your house, woukd thatvhelp you see the oicture differently? Don't dismiss out of hand the idea simply because you can't be bothered to understand the comparison.

@easterniowegin https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/adding-billions-tax-dollars-paid-undocumented-immigrants

@easterniowegin And the reason it's a false equivalency is illegal immigrants are [i]working jobs in the US from which they earn a wage with which they purchase goods and services[/i].

@CountScrofula that article doesn't refute what i said, it just happens to turn a blind eye to some of it. Shows the hypocrisy of the federal government.
Sales tax is paid by anyone who shops here. I would pay california sales tax if i visited there...doesnt give me citizenship rights to the state. That is precisely why tourism is such a large business. But that doesnt assign any rights.

So landlords and employers are making it easier for illegals to stay under the radar...that doesnt make it right.
Maybe while i live at your place, i pass your son some cash to use his wifi password regularly. All that does is make him turn against you when you want to evict me.
This analogy is completely adequate for purposes of this discussion.

@easterniowegin My analogy comes into play again.

If @CountScrofula finds you squatting in his house, and for whatever reasons decides to not throw you out-- he's better off getting a few bucks from you weekly for the cervezas you nab out of the fridge, and a few bucks for hot showers and towels. And for that reason, he's better off not busting your chops when you try to hustle and make a few bucks.

@CountScrofula [quote]nd the reason it's a false equivalency is illegal immigrants are working jobs in the US from which they earn a wage with which they purchase goods and services.[/quote]
So as long as i contribute something to your household expenses, i can stay without a problem. I'll buy some food. I'll put gas into your car when i use it. But i get to start dictating what your wife buys on grocery day, since I'm chipping in money for food.
I really don't see how you can not see the similarities in the situation...other than kicking me, an unwanted guest, out of your home would evidently make you a bigot....

@easterniowegin You are really milking this false equivalency aren't you? Its not the same thing at all, and honestly its weird you are equating these two things.

They are not the same.

@CopperCicada You have addressed it precisely.

If Americans are going to have the first borderless country with no immigration policy or enforcement in history, then good luck with that. This will simply turn the United States into the world's welfare state and be overrun and cease to exist as a nation. And there is an entire political party media outlets there that seems just fine with that idea.

If you decide that is not such a good idea and want Americans citizens to obey federal laws like paying income tax or else go to jail, then yes you must deport everyone who is in the country illegally. Otherwise you are in the absurd position of not punishing illegal aliens who break federal law while jailing American citizens who do, correct?

However if you wish to halt illegal immigration you don't offer something (free medical care) that people cannot get in their own countries. That seems obvious.

Being "humane" and "caring" are not arguments only cheap appeals to false emotion. Unfortunately it seems the USA has too many adults with the minds and life experience of 10 year olds trying to run the place. The world saw some of them last night (abortions for transgender MEN? Missed that lecture when I was at Hebrew University. And here I thought only WOMEN had a uterus. Oh well). It wasn't a pretty sight.

@Abrienda The issue with illegal immigration is the willingness to employ undocumented labor. And behind that, an unwillingness to enforce the tax, immigration, and labor violations involved in such illegal employment.

A person entering the country illegally is violating American laws regarding legal immigration.

The American citizen employing such a person is violating an entire stack of federal laws, and I would say, given that such a person could also be a terrorist or other criminal, undermining national security. Certainly undermining national security in kicking out the jams on any reasoned process we might institute for immigration control: the why's and how's, the choices of who we want to become part of our nation.

But we almost NEVER address that.

@easterniowegin This entire argument seems based on the idea that illegal immigrants are a drain on the system rather than a net contributor and there's just no evidence for that.

I'm of course willing to be convinced otherwise.

@CountScrofula since so many laws are being broken by so many, at every step within the process, you'll never know the true cost of allowing all of the illegal activity.
What causes so much angst in the debate is people's willingness to ignore the illegal activities are taking place...all of them. Why can't we agree that all of it is wrong, because it is illegal...then work to find a true solution to the bigger problem...not just addressing symptoms.

@CopperCicada Oh you are absolutely right. There was a problem with hiring illegal workers from Ukraine in Czech Republic. Everyone turned a blind though it was a serious offense...until one of them raped a girl in the neighborhood where he was working with a crew of five others. Creatively the COMPANY was charged with being complicit in the rape, arguing the rapist would not have been in the country had he not been brought in illegally by the company thus the crime occred only because they knowingly broke the law so they were complicit in his other crime.

To paraphrase our PM, the safety of one Czech CITIZEN is worth more than the economic welfare of every Ukrainian who ever lived. That's what is called a nation that cares about its people. The result? The company went bankrupt ...and there are no more illegals working in Czech Republic.

Yes punish companies that facilitate breaking the law but you have hundreds of thousands now crossing from as far as way as the Congo (Ebola, anyone?) and the problem is no longer businesses hiring illegals but whole cities and an entire political party behind it

@Abrienda In the United States-- there is no political will to end it. It is a bi-partisan lack of political will rooted in economics and the economic funding of political campaigns.

People from the "right", whatever that means, will ensure me that's not the case. All the illegal immigrants have, or will be, thrown out. Deported.

But I have not seen evidence of it.

Sure. There is a narrative from the "left", whatever that means, about inclusion, tolerance, diversity and so on. And that is where one hears the political rhetoric about providing social services to illegal immigrants. We just heard those in the DNC debates.

But I live in a red state. A "right" leaning state. And there has been no political will to end illegal immigration. At least for agricultural work. For the last 30+ years I have lived in this state.

Everyone knows where the illegal farm workers live. It's not hard to know. Figure out where the farms are and drive in that general direction. You'll find Spanish language missions (Christian). Taquerias. Bodegas. And there you will find the people. And everyone knows that they migrate. From where, to where. People know they exist because people see them in Walmart, restaurants, the gas stations.

And Walmart, restaurants, and gas stations want their money.

Want Latin groceries and don't want to go to the sticks by the farms? Go to Walmart. Good chilis, Catholic candles, masa for tamales. They often have giant plastic Virgin of Guadalupe's with lights in them around the time of the feast.

It's not a partisan issue. It's an economic issue.