Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for 2024?

@MasterLee She should at least put Finland and Denmark on the list. Right?

Seems like their economy is strong. What do you think?

@SimplyTracie Except they're not socialist. They're capitalist economies. So, yeah...?

@Sicarium Although there are many similarities with the US they’re more socialistic than we are.

@SimplyTracie That's not how this works. They are capitalist, free market economies. Capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive, they cannot coexist at the same time and in the same place.

Outside of economics, the Scandinavian counties are social liberal societies. Social liberal does not equal socialist. They are different concepts.

In no way is any Scandinavian country socialist.

@Sicarium Ohhh okay

@Sicarium I was thinking about their welfare system and how their citizens are taxed at a higher rate to sorta provide for everyone.

@SimplyTracie Yeah, that's a common misconception. Both of those would fall under the social liberalism umbrella.

Socially, socialism attempts to achieve equality of outcomes. Everyone ends up with the same. Social liberalism strives for equality of opportunities. Welfare and other social programs are designed to lift people's starting point to give them a level playing field to start from, not end at.

There's plenty of arguments about whether and how well that works, but it is not socialism.

@Sicarium Tell me then, what exactly are so many people against that Bernie and AOC are so in favor of?

@SimplyTracie Many reasons. Some of them:

For Bernie, he's being disingenuous. He knows that Scandivinavia isn't socialist but still tells people that. Most of what he wants isn't socialism, but he says it is. So is he being honest, is he just saying what his base wants to hear, or is he really a socialist but trying to water it down? That makes people leary.

For AOC, she's just dumb. There's no other way to put it. She has no idea what she's talking about.

From a philosophical perspective, in order to put their ideas into practice, you'd have to give up on any notion of freedom, capitalism, or opprotunity in order to guarantee equal outcomes. And doing that, trying to ensure equal outcomes, has led to the most evil and devastating crimes ever committed by humans. I'm literally talking mass murder. See the entirety of the 20th century. Russia, Ukraine, China, Cambodia, Zimbabwe...the list goes on.

For policies, it usually comes down to money. What they want, or claim to want would cost insane amounts of money. It would bankrupt the nation. Even if you taxed everyone at 100%, took all wealth, you wouldn't even come close to paying for it. And you'd destroy the single greatest mechanism for lifting people out of poverty humans have come up with in the process. So you destroy wealth and then trap people in poverty, which is exactly what happened in Venezuela.

Socialism always fails. It has never succeeded. Personally, I see no need to condemn people to yet another failed experiment.

@Sicarium Okay. I will take your word on all you said.

I will go back and ponder all you said in this thread. One more thing, whatever those Nordic countries are doing, it seems to work. Would it work in the USA. Whatever it’s called.

@SimplyTracie Don't just take my word for it, or anyone else's. You gotta make up your own mind, which means educating yourself. Listen to self-proclaimed socialists, look back at history, listen to the critics and see where you stand.

The assumption that social liberalism works in Scandinavia is a bit of a false premise. It works, but it's cyclical. They go through periods of austerity where they reduce government spending, the economies take off, there's plenty of money, so they increase spending again. Rinse and repeat.

Also, the Scandinavian nations have around 10,000,000 people each. That's it. They've got really small populations and very steady population increase numbers. The US has close go 360,000,000 people, we're far more spread out geographically, and far more diverse in terms of our political and social views and opinions. What works there, won't automatically work here.

And we do have those social programs here. Just not as many.

@Sicarium I will take you word because you have no reason to tell me something that’s not true.

Clearly, there are too many at the bottom here in the US. Capitalism doesn’t seem to work for the disadvantaged. Many people across the country are struggling to make ends meet. I don’t care if the billionaires end up being trillionaires but help those at the bottom.

@SimplyTracie Compare those at the bottom here to those at the bottom in non-capitalist systems. Then compare those at the bottom here to those at the top of socialist systems.

If you want to help those at the bottom, abandoning capitalism is the last thing you want to do. We've got a legitimate shot at ending true poverty across the entire planet in 50 years. That's how much wealth capitalism generates. And it doesn't all go to the wealthy, as AOC and Bernie would want you to believe.

@Sicarium Jeez, I thought what we have [i]is [/i]capitalism. What happened?

I don’t need to make comparisons. Our leaders are supposed to make those choices that would be beneficial to all. Maybe helping people who live in poverty is counterproductive for the wealthy. So it’s not in their best interest to do so.

We had it but they mucked with it. The market fixes itself in most cases.

@SimplyTracie Kind have, we've got a corrupt version of regulated capitalism.

Sure you do. If you want to know if A or B is better, or if A or B doesn't work, comparing A and B together is effective.

Leaders lead, but the people select the leaders. Voting is a responsibility. You have the responsibility to know what you're voting for. Politicians aren't angels and they're not infallible. Blindly trusting them is part of the current problem.

@Sicarium Well, I have to trust somebody sometime. If capitalism is best but it is corrupted, we’re screwed.

You say that poverty can be eliminated in 50 years. Are you confident that our leaders are doing what it takes? That they are taking the right steps?

@SimplyTracie That's not what I said. We do not have a purely capitalist system. We have a corrupt version of regulated capitalism. That includes corrupt politicians, corrupt businessmen, and regulations that do more harm than good.

You're missing an important piece here. Capitalism doesn't require our political leaders to do the right thing or take the right steps. They just have to stay out of the way as much as possible. The government is not the vehicle of success in a capitalist system. You are. Individuals, whether they come together to work cooperatively or go do their own thing, will engage in economic activity and will generate wealth on their own. The question is whether government will let them or not.

And yeah, I'm fairly confident that we'll end true poverty in the next generation or two. That won't necessarily include socialist nations if they remain socialist, like Venezuela for example, but those are self-inflicted wounds.

We're watching it happen now in formerly socialist countries, Africa, and the poorest parts of Asia.

@Sicarium But why hasn’t it worked and why will it take another two generations? What makes you think our leaders will stay out of the way?

Do you believe that those corrupted businessmen will just stop being greedy all of a sudden? I don’t.

Do you think we the people will stop electing corrupt politicians?

Has Trump done away with regulations do more harm than good? I know he has done away with many regulations.

@SimplyTracie Capitalism has worked. Capitalist nations are the wealthiest in the world, with the highest standards of living and the least amount of poverty. I'm contrast, socialist nations always fail.

No. People are corruptable. You'll always have corrupt businessmen, politicians, doctors, etc. We have always had them, we always will. We succeed despite them. That's one of the benefits of capitalism, it doesn't require people to be perfect, it takes human nature into account because it's a natural system.

I would argue yes. Trump has killed off more regulations that anyone else in recent history (although that's not saying much since Obama introduced more new regulations that most Presidents combined), and most of those did more harm than good. There's more than can be repealed though.

@Sicarium [quote]That's not what I said. We do not have a purely capitalist system. We have a corrupt version of regulated capitalism. That includes corrupt politicians, corrupt businessmen, and regulations that do more harm than good.[/quote]

If we will always have a corrupted version of capitalism, how can we succeed?

@SimplyTracie The same way we have up until now. Capitalism doesn't require perfect people to succeed. Which is a good thing since perfect people do not exist.

@Sicarium Ugh! My issue is to help those who are impoverished. If we are the wealthiest nation and capitalism works, why are there so many living in poverty.

As I said, I don’t care if you earn a zillion dollars as long as people aren’t dying because they have no money.

So make capitalism happen in spite of greedy businessmen or corrupted politicians, I really don’t care.

@SimplyTracie How many poor people do you think we have in the US and how do you define poverty? Because poverty is relative.

@Sicarium I don’t know how there are in the US but I read stories every day about people from Mississippi to California who die because they can’t afford their medicine. Or who live in places I wouldn’t go near.

So if capitalism makes Americans wealthy and takes these people out of their dire situations, I’m all for it.