maybe we’d be better off long term if Corbyn doesn’t go for a 2nd ref after all

@Burnley123 Why would Theresa May include Corbyn when he has spent the last two and a half years talking about nothing other than removing her from office?

You said above:

"A big problem is that labour can lose voters by taking any concrete position."

Theresa May has faced the same dilemma. But, she's faced it. Corbyn hasn't! Instead, he's sat on the fence and said nothing about actual negotiations with the EU.

@room101 You could try to include all parties and negotiate a corss party Brexit. That would include labour priorities too. They have no interest in doing that. I said Labour loses votes on taking a concrete position because I meant it in terms of the referendum. I'm sure you would agree with that.

@Burnley123 Of course I agree. But, as I've said, Theresa May and the Conservatives face the same dilemma. As we've seen throughout this debacle and in last nights vote.

She's not talking to Corbyn. Does that mean that she's not talking to [b]any[/b] Labour MP's?

@room101 probably just the 3 that already voted for her deal

@AndrewtheAlu @Burnley123 I think this article hits the nail on the head.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-theresa-may-eu-negotiations-trade-michel-barnier-vote-commons-defeat-a8730116.html

As a long-time Labour voter, it pains me to say that I've not seen any willingness from Labour to even negotiate with the Tories, let alone reach a consensus.

@room101 She's voting for the minimum she needs to get her vote through.

Labour divisions are not just about Brexit and other forces at play impact the process. For example, I would no longer be a Labour voter if or wasn't for Corbyn. I'm talking about the proposed new centre party and the justification for the 2016 Labour leadership contest. Here we disagree.

On the specific issue, I think it is unfair to blame the left for Brexit due to a multitude of reasons, not least that it is primarily a right wing project and they labour is not in power.

@Burnley123 I'm not blaming anybody for Brexit per se. By the way, did you watch "Brexit: The Uncivil War"? Brilliant and informative.

I'm criticizing Labour (under Corbyn's stewardship) for sitting on the fence purely because of self-interests. He doesn't want to lose Labour votes. In my view, that's the very definition of self-interest.

@room101 Ive never denied that. However, if they hadn't done that then May would have a huge majority and there would be no chance of stopping Brexit, or even watering down.

@Burnley123 Mate, I know that you've never denied that.

What we seem to disagree on is your view that Brexit can be stopped. I wish that it could but I don't see anything, either in the polls nor anecdotally, that supports that view.

And, your view that May's deal is not a "watering down".

It's a compromise. And the EU keeps telling us over and over and over again, there is no other deal to be had.

It baffles me that Corbyn insists otherwise.

Once the referendum result was announced , all parties and the country should have stood together and negotiated as one and we would have been leaving with a great deal that would have suited everyone...instead we are the laughing stock of the world and all I hear from the eu, is they want her to tell them what she wants...labour will lose and nothing will change , they will extend art 50, because whatever her b deal is, it has to be passed by Parliment and then the eu and they don't have the time....

@Platinum The only thing (in what you've said) that I'm not too sure about, is the extension of article 50.

I fear that this stalemate is fueling Brexiteers and we will end up leaving the EU with no deal. It drives me nuts that Labour and the DUP can't see that eventuality.

@room101 But you don't think Labour have to compromise? I'm not sure exactly what you expect them to do. You have told me you are not in favour of the May deal or cancelling Brexit.

The eu have already said they will allow us to extend it...we can leave with a no deal and start trading WTO immediately, but I still think the eu wants a deal that is good for both sides and it will happen...@room101

@Burnley123 No, I never said that I was not in favour of Theresa May's deal. I've said all along that, given my understanding of what the EU is and what it stands for, I cannot see what's so terrible about it.

I've asked you to explain to me why you think it's such a bad deal. That's not the same as me saying that I'm not in favour of it.

I've said that I can't see us cancelling Brexit. That's not the same as me saying that I wish we could.

@Burnley123 labour have spent two and a half years not saying what they want and now if the slimmest chance they were running the country , how can anyone vote for them when they don't know why.

@Platinum I know that the EU will allow us to extend it and that they want us to reach a deal. The question is, will our Parliamentarians do that?

@room101 the problem with her deal is we will stay in the customs union and with that, we will have to obey the eu laws and keep our borders open and restrict trade with other countries...not what was voted for...plus we will be shut out of eu negotiations, I would sooner remain than that...

@Platinum But that's not what the deal says. It states that:

UK will be a "single customs territory" from March 2019 until December 2020.

UK to remain in EU customs union indefinitely [b]if[/b] new agreement not reached by then.

We have almost two years to reach an agreement with the EU on trade and on the Irish border.

@room101 I thought you I'd tell me you didn't upport May's deal and I also thought I had told you why I didn't support it.

Short answer:

1) The UK stays in the customs union but not the single market. Northern Ireland stays in both and this means NI has a competitive disadvantage. Also a border is needed in the Irish Sea and the situation risks provoking the unionist community and endangering good Friday.

2) The deal ties the UK to state aid laws and restricts a government's ability to nationalise industries. Its weaker on environmental and worker protections. This is a right wing deal.

3) It restricts freedom of movement but not enough to appease Brexiteers. Hence it fails in its own terms as a populist measure.

@Burnley123 As far as I'm aware, the deal states that Northern Ireland stays in the single market, not in the customs union in its own right. This makes sense because nobody wants a hard border between Northern and Southern Ireland. Northern Ireland stays in the customs union by virtue of it being part of the UK. A subtle but important difference because this recognises the Unionists cause.

We are already in a competitive disadvantage because we voted for Brexit. By staying in the customs union (or some variation thereof) that disadvantage is mitigated.

The border in the Irish Sea is part of the back-stop and would be negated when we reach a proper trading agreement with the EU. Remember, we have not even started on that road yet.

Who, other than Corbyn & co, is even talking about nationalising industries?

It's not weaker on environmental and worker protections because all EU law was ratified into British law (by Theresa May) in January 2017. Your statement, and Corbyn's argument, presumes that the UK will throw out all of that law and enact legislation which is detrimental to both issues. Where is the basis for such an argument?

The Schengen Agreement ie the agreement which guarantees free movement of people is one of the things that has always made me very dubious about the EU. In any event, we are not part of that agreement.

Nothing will appease Brexiteers. They want to leave the EU. Period. Surely you've come to terms with that by now.

Not sure what you mean by "The deal ties the UK to state aid laws". Please elaborate.

@room101 Clearly a hard border in NI would be a disaster but one in the Irish see is also troublesome, hence why the DUP voted against.

You agree that we are at a competitive disadvantage because of Brexit. This is a big problem compounded by the fact that its uneven within the UK.

The state aid laws are a big part of the EU. They restrict government intervention from providing a competitive advantage to some industries over others. This ties the hands of democratic govts to say nationalise things and if we leave the EU, we would have less negotiating leeway to 'bend' existing rules.

The one 'benefit' of the deal is its reduction of immigration. If, as we agree, it won't placate Brexiteers: then it begs the question as to whether it is worth it at all.

@Burnley123 Oh, and on this:

[i]"But you don't think Labour have to compromise? I'm not sure exactly what you expect them to do."[/i]

Of course Labour have to compromise. Everybody else does but not Labour? Because they don't want to lose votes??????

Two and a half years ago, I expected them to sit down with the elected government and work on a deal which delivered on the referendum result. Regardless of how stupid that result was. Now, I want Corbyn & co to just shut up and let those who actually want this matter resolved to get on with it.

@room101 Only now have labour been invited into the process and it doesn't include corbyn.

Tbh I'm not sure he could do anything to please you at this stage because your opinions on him are strong. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

@Burnley123 Yes, a border in the Irish Sea is troublesome. But, what the DUP is focusing on is what happens [b]if[/b] we do not reach a trade agreement with the EU. Without understanding that we haven't even started on such a trade deal yet!

As I've asked, who is even talking about nationalising industries? Sorry, but this is a non-issue.

The whole immigration issue was a BS stunt by Brexiteers. We have never been part of the Schengen Agreement so, again, free movement of people is a non-issue.

We can't appease people like that. Just like American Democrats can't appease pro-wall trumpettes.

Was it all worth it? No, of course not. But here we are.

Leaving is not stupid, staying is....staying in means millions of migrants, the U.K.not being able to support all these immigrants we do not have the inter structure ..paying the eu billions each year, which will go up every year, the eu doing less trade with us until we go begging to them which will cost us more..massive increase in knife crime and murders..massive rise in benefit payments ..our own kids not getting houses because they will be taken up by immigrants..there are over 4000 foreign prisoners in our prisons...we have 3000 immigrant on our watch list and over the next ten years it will not be safe to leave our homes...@room101