Change my mind: Capitalism is an inherent class struggle between those who do the work and those who own/run the means of production
Seriously, if you have a persuasive enough argument I will change my mind.
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
lovelywarpedlemon Best Comment
It's a complex issue... Overall I think the whole idea of what success is, and what it means to be a "wealthy" person/country is extremely flawed. The GDP does not measure health and satisfaction of a population, nor their environment. If the amount of money a person has is the *only* way to gauge "success," we have got it wrong.
Capitalism doesn't exist without consumerism, and with consumerism we trade a lot of our freedoms for minor comforts while destroying our souls, our sense of connection, and the environment. My convenience to purchase cheap electronics made from plastic (oil) directly influences the quality of life of people who have less money than I do. Without having this awareness, in living with such consensual blindness, we are not truly living. We are not truly living. Capitalism is absolutely class struggle, as well as human struggle--are we going to do the "right" thing? Apparently we are all okay with letting others suffer for our minor comforts.
"What's the alternative?"
Not to completely remove the systems in place, but to carefully and meticulously rework our global infrastructure so that there is less divide between classes, less focus on material wealth, and more focus on what really matters: connection, community, striving for a better world, for all.
But are we ready to give up our minor conveniences?
Capitalism doesn't exist without consumerism, and with consumerism we trade a lot of our freedoms for minor comforts while destroying our souls, our sense of connection, and the environment. My convenience to purchase cheap electronics made from plastic (oil) directly influences the quality of life of people who have less money than I do. Without having this awareness, in living with such consensual blindness, we are not truly living. We are not truly living. Capitalism is absolutely class struggle, as well as human struggle--are we going to do the "right" thing? Apparently we are all okay with letting others suffer for our minor comforts.
"What's the alternative?"
Not to completely remove the systems in place, but to carefully and meticulously rework our global infrastructure so that there is less divide between classes, less focus on material wealth, and more focus on what really matters: connection, community, striving for a better world, for all.
But are we ready to give up our minor conveniences?
SW-User
@lovelywarpedlemon Thought provoking.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@lovelywarpedlemon Why should we give up minor conveniences? I'm not a utopian (I am an anarchist though) but there's clearly enough wealth produced in the world for everyone to live comfortably enough. We just endlessly distribute it upwards. The problem is far more about billionaires than it is about smart phones.
@CountScrofula We are all billionaires, compared to the shoeless African children digging for diamonds in hand-trenched mines, which often cave in on them, or the people working in Chinese dye industry, breathing toxic air and drinking toxic water, or the homeless kids in India living on heaps of trash in slums, or the homeless people in the US, eating out of dumpsters to survive... You get the point...
If we made simple changes, like keeping our phones/electronics until they truly needed replacement, rather than getting a new phone every time the lastest one comes out, we could improve the quality of life of others. We would still have our conveniences, but there's a bit of a compromise, there.
Rather than have these industries that create unnecessary products just to be bought and thrown right away, we could make more things at home, have less of an impact on the environment around the world, while developing personal skills... It requires a change of mindset: money can't buy happiness. Human relation is more important. Trump is the best-worst-example of this. The man sleeps on a mountain of gold, yet no amount of money will ease his personal misery.
Money is not the most important thing about being alive. We live in excess.
If we made simple changes, like keeping our phones/electronics until they truly needed replacement, rather than getting a new phone every time the lastest one comes out, we could improve the quality of life of others. We would still have our conveniences, but there's a bit of a compromise, there.
Rather than have these industries that create unnecessary products just to be bought and thrown right away, we could make more things at home, have less of an impact on the environment around the world, while developing personal skills... It requires a change of mindset: money can't buy happiness. Human relation is more important. Trump is the best-worst-example of this. The man sleeps on a mountain of gold, yet no amount of money will ease his personal misery.
Money is not the most important thing about being alive. We live in excess.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@lovelywarpedlemon Sure. We over-consume meat and power and all that and there are ridiculous products which are a result of capitalism we can do without. We could scale back a decent amount.
The problem is how wealth and power gets sucked upwards. When we work a job, we are generating capital which makes the rich richer. That relationship is the issue.
The Democratic Republic of the Congo should be fabulously wealthy, but instead it's war-torn while resource companies make out like bandits. The poverty there is engineered; intentional because it maximizes profits. It can reduce the price of consumer goods, but a better way to do that is to see profit as stolen wages and let people own the capital they create.
The problem is how wealth and power gets sucked upwards. When we work a job, we are generating capital which makes the rich richer. That relationship is the issue.
The Democratic Republic of the Congo should be fabulously wealthy, but instead it's war-torn while resource companies make out like bandits. The poverty there is engineered; intentional because it maximizes profits. It can reduce the price of consumer goods, but a better way to do that is to see profit as stolen wages and let people own the capital they create.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@lovelywarpedlemon And we're not the billionaires. The billionaires are, even if I totally get your point about how much more wealth we have than the developing world.
But if you think that the wealth we live in is obscene, why are we the first target and not the employing class of people like the Koch Brothers and Jeff Bezos?
But if you think that the wealth we live in is obscene, why are we the first target and not the employing class of people like the Koch Brothers and Jeff Bezos?
SatanBurger · 36-40, F
@CountScrofula I like Jacques Fresco's idea of a moneyless society. He believed we should ban patents and make all scientific knowledge and medicine available to the public to use for our own benefit.
@CountScrofula I get where you're coming from. And I agree with you. We aren't the first target, no. Yet our choices still affect others.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
@lovelywarpedlemon Yeah. You're absolutely right and the kinds of motivations that drive you and choices you make (that I'm aware of from your posts here) are awesome and good ones.
I think we broadly agree even if we emphasize different things.
I think we broadly agree even if we emphasize different things.
Jamesbo · 70-79, M
[@lovelywarpedlemon Yes plastic is a byproduct of oil so is oil bad? If you say it is then what would hospitals us for its life saving devices? When in one look around and you will see how much plastic is used. Now we have electric vehicles and making some progress with them. But would in the past without gasoline what kind of rapid lifesaving means would you get taken to the hospital. Automobile safety and efficiency relies on, yes plastic. May I ask do you own a car? Do you have a furnace in your home or an air conditioner? everything is a trade off. Now Socialism is where communism starts, then it turns ingto the end justifies the means. Do you know what that means? That means that if you are one that gets in way of what the ruling party thinks you can be arrested thrown in jail or murdered and that is why communism has murdered more people than any other form of government in history. Oh and don't forget Venezuela, the population is starving in a grand scale since they initiated there Marxist communist government. I don't happen to have the time but there is so much more. I can see out colleges are doing a very poor job of educating our youth and at a very high cost.
@Jamesbo I don't think you're the Grand Model of what a civilian looks like, nor do I think everyone should be/think/act the same.