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@windinhishair Wind - How is providing much needed border security even remotely morally reprehensible?

@Budwick It isn't. We need border security. We do not need a ineffective, expensive wall that serves only to fan the flames of hatred towards immigrants. That's what is reprehensible. There are plenty of other things we can do that are more effective and less costly.

@windinhishair I hate this viewpoint. Why should the supposed feelings of immigrants have any bearing in what we, as Americans decide to do about border security?

Also, your claim of a wall not working is crap. Of course they work. The have them in Israel and they work great. The Berlin wall worked pretty good until it was torn down and so did the Great Wall of China.

Does that mean some people won't get though? Of course not, of course some people will get through. But right now people just walk right in, and that needs to change.

Additionally the wall is a symbol and a message to the governments of Mexico and Central America. Stop sending your problems here, work with us to address them, we aren't just taking them in anymore.

@SumKindaMunster Who said it had to do with the feelings of immigrants? We can have border security without an impotent physical barrier stretching thousands of miles. It isn't a choice between totally open borders and a wall. Neither the wall in Israel or Berlin are anywhere close to the length we are talking about. The only wall that comes close in length is the Great Wall of China, which didn't work either.

People do not "walk in" right now. They never have. We have border security, and crossings are the lowest they've been since the early 1970s. But don't let facts get in the way of your wall.

Yes, the wall is a symbol--a $30 billion symbol, telling the rest of the world to fuck off, we don't want non-whites in the US, we don't have charity for others any more, and during this Christmas season, we certainly do not have room at the inn any more. Go sleep in the manger in your own shithole countries.

[quote]Who said it had to do with the feelings of immigrants?[/quote]

You did: [quote]We do not need a ineffective, expensive wall that serves only to fan the flames of hatred towards immigrants[/quote]

Who cares if its longer than the one is Israel or Berlin? That doesn't mean it can't be done. Why would that have any bearing building it?

Additionally the Great Wall of China did work, for quite some time actually.

[quote]People do not "walk in" right now[/quote] Yes, they do actually.

[quote]Yes, the wall is a symbol--a $30 billion symbol, telling the rest of the world to fuck off, we don't want non-whites in the US, we don't have charity for others any more, and during this Christmas season, we certainly do not have room at the inn any more. Go sleep in the manger in your own shithole countries.[/quote]

That's your opinion and I don't agree for reasons already stated.

@windinhishair I couldn't agree more! 👍️

@SumKindaMunster Hatred towards immigrants has nothing to do with an immigrant's "feelings". It does have to do with hate that people express towards others.

Anyone who has spent time on the border (I have, and lived within sight of the border for years) knows a wall won't work. It is a symbol, and a symbol only, albeit a hugely expensive and wasteful one.

If so many people are wantonly crossing the border any time they want to, why are illegal border crossings at their lowest in generations? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it most certainly doesn't happen at the level you appear to believe. And it can be further reduced through additional personnel and technology that doesn't include a wall the Mexico won't pay for. You will.

@windinhishair [quote]Hatred towards immigrants has nothing to do with an immigrant's "feelings". It does have to do with hate that people express towards others.[/quote]

In other words, you are concerned about how this hate might be expressed. Therefore you are concerned about how immigrants might feel about that.

I'm sorry, but your personal anecdotal experience living near the border is not particularly compelling to me. You don't think its necessary or effective, I get that, but you living near it doesn't give you any sort of authority on whether or not it [i]would[/i] be effective. You see one tiny little portion of it, plus you clearly have strong feelings on the matter, so I could say that you see what you want to see and may only be participating in confirmation bias on the issue.

Perhaps illegal crossings are lower because Trump has been effective in his policies and rhetoric in reducing the amount of immigrants coming here.

A border wall would reduce them further. I cannot see how anyone can logically and effectively argue that it would not. Again, as already stated, it would not reduce it to zero. But it would be effective in reducing it.

I have no problem having my tax dollars used to pay for it. If they setup a gofundme account or otherwise to pay for it, I would contribute. I think its important and find arguments against it ineffective and besides the point.

What technologies would you suggest that would reduce illegal immigration? Would you support those over a wall? Why do you think those things would be more effective than a wall?

@SumKindaMunster I am concerned with how hatred in our country is expressed. It has nothing to do with how I perceive immigrants feel. Hatred diminishes all of us.

Border crossings have been trending down for years, so you cannot attribute it solely to Trump's policies, though those might have further reduced it.

You are correct that my personal experience isn't as important as the opinions of experts, most of whom believe that the wall is a very bad idea and will not be effective.

Even if a border wall further reduces illegal immigration, the real question is whether the cost is worth it. And that's where it falls flat. It isn't worth it in any way. You could accomplish the same thing with increased personnel (hey, those are jobs!!!), increased surveillance using drones, motion detectors, and other technology.
They work, they are being employed in places right now, and they can be employed elsewhere. We can also increase penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants, including Trump properties where he employs illegals. The bottom line is we don't have the money to waste on a wall that won't work.

I appreciate your responses. I am in favor of using new technologies, including the ones you listed to assist in reducing illegal immigration as well as increasing penalties for those that hire illegals. I am open to a comprehensive package that addresses border security and illegal immigration and realize in America, a deal is a compromise, and nobody gets everything they want.

Otherwise I don't agree with the other things you said, for reasons already expressed.

Thank you for being civil and staying on point.

@SumKindaMunster Thank you as well. We obviously disagree, but I respect your opinion. I would like to see a bipartisan bill that is focused on real immigration reform, to include issues on immigrants that are already here. Sadly, I don't see that happening any time soon. The political will just isn't there for either party to do it.