IF A Fetus Is Not Human Life...

...but just a meaningless bit of tissue, why should abortion not be allowed for any woman anytime anywhere for any reason? Abortion clinics should be as easy to find as dental clinics. In fact why should a woman even have to GIVE a reason? If abortion is about aborting something that isn't human only a bunch of cells that happen to be inside a woman's body then it has no more moral significance than clipping your toe nails or shaving?

But if it is a human life, please explain why should it ever be legal except for danger to the life of the mother ONLY?

The whole pro-abortion argument is illogical and abortionists can mask their shame by saying they are "pro-choice" but should have the courage (and moral bankruptcy) admit they believe a "fetus" has no more claim to existence than a cyst that needs to be removed, though as a nurse I have yet to encounter a cyst that had a heart beat...

If you admit it is life but are for abortion on demand anyway because a woman has a RIGHT to do with what she has inside her body because she "owns" it even if it is human than ethically your argument is the same as slave owners before the US Civil War who said black slaves were THEIRS because having bought them they OWNED them and had the right to feed or starve or beat or kill them as they wished because they lacked the rights of other human beings because they were black...just like a "fetus" does not cause it cannot pronounce your name.

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VSonMe · 56-60, M

Most abortions occur before the potential baby is a fetus. The morning-after pill for example destroys what is simply a cluster of undifferentiated cells. An early abortion, which most are, kills a zygote. It is too early for it to be called a fetus. I don't consider this to be killing a human as at that stage it is not a human but only a potential human.

I commit mass murder every day when I have a wank. Every sperm I spurt onto my chest had a chance at becoming my offspring - until I wiped it off and flushed it.

Later stage abortions are rarer and not typically seen by anyone as inconsequential. They usually occur because the fetus is not developing properly or because the mother's health is endangered. An actual life has to take precedence over potential life.

Abrienda · 26-30, F

@VSonMe You have of course missed the point of this post BUT have answered the question posed in spite of yourself. You don't believe the "thing" ... the "cluster of cells"inside your future gf or wife gf (or YOU when you were inside your own mother?) is a human life. A completely illogical and counter factual not to say immoral position to hold...enjoy it

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Abrienda I did answer it. I said that in the early stages when it's an undifferentiated group of cells it is NOT human.

It is your opinion that my view is immoral. You are not the arbiter of morality.

I am proud to be pro-choice and give money to Planned Parenthood each year.

Abrienda · 26-30, F

@VSonMe I said you answered it, dummy. I said you were an abortionist. Be happy embracing death.

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Abrienda then in what way did my answer miss the point?

Abrienda · 26-30, F

@VSonMe Because you seem not have seen the illogic in saying that something was NOT human life one minute before but IS life one minute later. So...so long as the "cluster of cells" is in the womb it is not human life? Either it is or it is not...unless you believe in magical thinking.

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Abrienda it's not magical thinking at all.

A fetus is human when it emerges into the world. As soon as it is born, it becomes a human and has rights under law.

If you don't define human life as starting at birth it creates more ethical and legal problems. When does it become human? At conception? Can you say that a group of a few undifferentiated cells is a human?

If not at conception, you have to define when it becomes human and this has consequences. If it's human, it has rights distinct from its mother.

Your problem is that you think simplistically. This is an issue of shades of grey not the binary, black/white, right/wrong question that you presume it to be because you are incapable of sophisticated thought.

Abrienda · 26-30, F

@VSonMe Now we know you are losing the argument when you make personal attacks, don't we?

Well as I just quoted there have been over 50,000,000 abortions in the USA since 1973. It is telling that you are "proud" to have contributed money and your voice to that holocaust of cell clusters.

Anyway you have shown your grasp of logic is equal to your lack of manners. Next time you write that check think about how happy you would be your mother had made the choice you so proudly support. Happily I have nothing more to at to you. You have shown yourself.

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Abrienda let's see. In your first response to me you called me immoral. In your second, you called me a dummy. I think that must mean you lost the argument, doesn't it?

I said your argument is simplistic and that you are incapable of sophisticated thought. I think your own words are my evidence. I am happy to let everyone draw their own conclusions.

Cmstars · 22-25, F

@VSonMe How does your sperm have a chance to be human on your chest? You think a human can develop with a woman being involved? Thats interesting.

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Cmstars it was an example of ridiculo ad absurdum. Thought that would be obvious

Cmstars · 22-25, F

@VSonMe I see. My apologies. So strictly from your own argument, a woman should be able to lawfully have an abortion at any stage (up until birth) since you said birth is when it becomes human. Do I understand that correctly?

VSonMe · 56-60, M

@Cmstars that's close but not entirely correct without further clarification.

Let me answer the 2 questions separately.

1. When does a zygote/fetus become human?

You can see that this has different answers depending on what aspect of human you mean. You could answer from the viewpoint of a biologist or a Catholic priest or a lawyer to give 3 examples.

I was primarily answering from a legal perspective. When you say that a human being exists, it immediately has human rights. Does it make sense that a zygote is considered human? Does it make sense that a 12 week fetus is considered human? How about a 20 week fetus? You see the point? It's a continuum from conception to birth. It makes sense and is what society recognizes to say a human exists when it enters the world.

2. I believe in early pregnancy, the mother should be free to abort. After a certain point, it should be (and is) restricted to be performed only if its development is not normal and it will not live long or healthily or if the mother's health is compromised.

The choice to abort because of abnormalities is difficult for everyone but this should be between the mother and her doctor primarily.

Abrienda · 26-30, F

@VSonMe Right...you are done here. I can take that shower now...better make it a long BATH!

Cmstars · 22-25, F

@VSonMe Right but your argument now gives legal protection to potential humans, based on your own definitions.

Why not 12 weeks again? Because it's not viable? If science changes to the point of making it viable, will your views change?

Thanks for considering and the friendly dialogue.