Immigration

@CopperCicada With all respect to your ancestors, pretty much anyone arriving in 1880 at Ellis was accepted.

The Immigration Act of 1882 levied a tax of 50 cents per passenger to be paid by the ship's owner. The law further established that the US would screen passengers and anyone determined to be a convict, lunatic, idiot or person unable to take care of himself or herself without becoming a public charge would not be allowed to land.

I don't doubt your ancestors skills. But we're too often guilty of claiming our own ancestors did everything 'by the book' when in fact, the bar was not set very high. My own ancestors arrived in the 1850s under the same conditions.

Times are different. Taxpayers are being asked to pay for an awful lot so citizens to be should be the only ones permitted under careful scrutiny. @hlpflwthat

@jackjjackson So no more students?

Limited to while they are student and then out unless they become citizens. @hlpflwthat

@hlpflwthat I don't disagree with you.

In another post I write about jus soli or right of soil citizenship.

There I point out that my ancestors came without a sponsor. Made no application. Passed no citizenship test. They had no family. They had no money.

They simply passed mental and physical hygiene tests.

But they also demonstrated the capacity to work. Which at the time was largely linked to the capacity to do physical labor. Even though my ancestors were skilled tradesmen, their trades were physically demanding.

No. The bar wasn't set very high.

And I think that speaks to what's different as well as what's similar between now and 1880's.

In 1880's we needed any skilled manual laborer we could get our hands on. America was willing to pay a social cost for that. The immigrants of the 1880's were hated as much as illegal aliens crossing the border to pick crops and work the slaughterhouse. You can go back and look at the cartoons in Harper's Magazine. We hated the Irish and Germans.

Somehow the capital that they generated was worth it. Why? Because we did it as a nation. The fact that I can go to a grocery store in the Deep South and see remanents of that wave of immigration shows what an impact it had on this nation. Brats. Kielbasa. And son on.

There were also no social safety nets then.

Now it's just a matter of economic and social calculus.

The social costs of bringing in unskilled or low skilled immigrants isn't worth it for us as a nation. People don't want the transformation of society that comes from that. They don't want the impact on social systems.

Which goes back to Jack's post. And my response. We have labor needs. We have a basis for immigration. Just not in refugee populations.

Me? I love central American people and food. I love that social transformation.

@jackjjackson In STEM fields here, where I am-- if we took all the highest qualified students... they would all be Chinese. If we cap Chinese, then they would all be Indian. We have to quota every immigrant group to just get Americans in seats. We similarly have a problem filling research and academic positions. It sounds like a good idea to cut visas for STEM students and STEM professionals-- but the American labor is just not there.

@CopperCicada How then do you propose to pick crops & milk cows? Who will care for the aging baby-boomers - STEM grads? Who slaughters our meat and fills the grocery stores? Who mans the laundries? Who builds homes & re-roofs them?

I appreciate your response. You obviously have a better handle on immigration history than most. Immigrants have been vetted for decades. Given the task, I don't think we've done a terrible job.

I guess where we part company is that there is a 'too many.' A social system that turns its back on mankind isn't all that valuable. IMO.

@hlpflwthat Great let us know how many illegal immigrants you'll be taking in, feeding, educating, and getting them into the system legally. It's an admirable quality. I'm sure you are willing to put your money where your mouth is.

@hlpflwthat Be clear that I'm not exactly holding a burning torch and pitchfork for illegal immigrants.

Illegal immigrants have been migrating from Central America through Alabama, the Panhandle of Florida, to Central and South Florida-- for the whole 30 years I've lived here.

It was never a thing.

Then we entered this yin-yang thing. Back and forth. Anti-immigrant rhetoric for political reasons. The talking points as I mentioned in my post above. People don't want the social transformations and impacts. And then it snaps back and cools off because people sure as hell want the cheap labor.

Now the rhetoric is at a point of causing social rupture. And that's why I'm not exactly for open borders. If this issue isn't dealt with we're going to face irreparable social damage. We're there already probably. Legal immigrants, second and third generation immigrants are catching shit because of the vitriol over illegal immigrants.

All the crops picked around here are picked by undocumented Central Americans. Mostly Guatemalans and Hondurans. Most of the roofing crews here are the same. A fair number of Asians on bad visas.

The social fear aspect can't be addressed without addressing the economic drivers. The economic drivers can't be addressed without addressing other social issues.

Like-- they are working on robots that pick produce.

In a few years there goes the pretext that these people are taking American jobs. The jobs won't exist.

It's interesting you mention dairy.

That was my wife's family's business. Dairy cows. Her uncle never left the farm and milked all his cows 2X a day (or however many times) his whole life. Was bought out. Dead now. Those small farms are gone. Big agribusiness.

And it's interesting. Gone are all the young people. All the mom and pop shops. There is no grocery store in her home town. A Walmart. No feed stores. No hardware stores. A Walmart.

And guess what? Now there are latin restaurants showing up. Taquieras. And illegal farm labor. On the huge agribusiness farms.

Sounds familiar. *looks around*

My great grandmother came over from Russia illegally on her sister’s identification as an unskilled 17-year old. We are a nation of immigrants and from all walks of life with diverse backgrounds and means. Guess what? We’re still doing pretty good.@hlpflwthat

@KaTeeEvent And I'm glad she did! ;)

H is a troll. Not worth your valuable time. @CopperCicada

That troll H won’t help anyone or even say thank you for his welfare check and food stamps . @SumKindaMunster