Thoughts on modern feminism?

@CountScrofula The only argument that the anti feminists have is they complain about feminists wanting "literal" equality like physically the same as men. I think that's incredibly hyperbolic. I've never met any feminists but I doubt they want to "look" like men and be able to lift "like" men. I think feminism is just all about chances and being treated the same rather than some bug that should be "out of sight, out of mind." That's the way we were once treated.

@SatanBurger Yeah, most of the anti-feminist arguments I find are just emotional discomfort with a challenge to the status quo. So everything gets wildly mis-characterized.

@CountScrofula I find a lot of anti-feminists just object to the fact that [b]some[/b] women want all the benefits of sex equality without the concomitant responsibilities. In a lot of cases I think they have a point.

@suzie1960 What are some examples? I'm coming up with 'men are expected to ask women out' but I'm sure you're referring to something meatier than that.

@CountScrofula Those who want the same pay as men but refuse to do the same work because "I'm only a woman" or aren't prepared to put the hours in because they want to get home.

When the suffragettes were active, how many were calling for women to be sent to the front line in World War 1?

How many are calling for women to be subject to the same rules of appearance as men when they join the armed forces? Or the same dress codes in places like the House of Commons?

These are just a few examples of the sort of things I've heard men complain about.

@suzie1960 For the first one, it's only the last few years I've managed to stay out of factory work as a woman but I've never seen any women not lift anything heavy or not put in the hours just simply because their women.

I don't get that argument because I've held very physical jobs all my life (except recently) and never once ran into a woman that complained about doing the work.

I can't attest to the rest but my research found that war jobs made women more equal and there's a lot of women that helped win to war thanks to them.

You're welcome anti feminists 😊

https://www.bustle.com/articles/48404-10-heroic-women-who-helped-win-wwi-because-the-great-war-wasnt-only-fought-by-men

[quote]Flora Sandes was the only British woman to officially serve as a soldier in the trenches during World War I. How she got there is testament to a very determined character. A St John's Ambulance volunteer who'd once shot a man in self-defence, she went to Serbia to serve as a nurse; but when she was separated from her colleagues, she promptly joined the Serbian army as a soldier instead.

This was, for a 40-year-old British woman and the daughter of a clergyman, completely unthinkable — but Sandes did it anyway. Not only that, she fought alongside men [big](the Serbian army accepted women)[/big] so well that she became a sergeant-major. She was wounded by a grenade in the line of fire, and the Serbian Military gave her their highest honour, the Order of the Karadorde's Star.[/quote]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z9bf9j6

[quote]WW1 historian, Prof. Margaret MacMillan
The war changed women’s lives, and in some ways for the better. They showed society that they were able to do men’s jobs and were intellectually more than capable of taking part in society. However, those gains could not be completely consolidated after the war was over; many women were forced from their jobs once the men returned and expected to go back into domestic life. Many women had earned the right to vote, but such things as going to university or standing as MPs were still overwhelmingly the preserve of men.[/quote]

[quote]WW1 historian, Dr. Krisztina Robert
At first glance progress [after the war] seems limited. Nevertheless, women's extensive war participation helped convince politicians and the public about their suitability for citizenship, leading to full enfranchisement in 1928. Furthermore, many women developed new skills, self-confidence and contacts in their war jobs and were able to capitalise on these gains after the war in terms of greater freedoms both at work and in personal relationships.[/quote]

@suzie1960 Another badass war female:


[quote]Thuliez was a French counterpart to Edith Cavell, helped her with her plots, and was tried on the same occasion, only narrowly escaping execution through the intervention of the Pope and the King of Spain (yes, really). Her survival is amazing, considering that she was one of the most prominent resistance figures in France during the war.

She organized an escape route in occupied France to the Netherlands and Britain, and with the help of various accomplices, smuggled over 170 people out. She decided to travel to Brussels, where Cavell was located, and it was there, in an apartment filled with copies of resistance newspapers, that she was arrested and put on trial. Whether she wore her signature monocle to the trial remains unclear.[/quote]

https://www.bustle.com/articles/48404-10-heroic-women-who-helped-win-wwi-because-the-great-war-wasnt-only-fought-by-men

@suzie1960 I think I'll just refer to @SatanBurger's excellent answer for the most part.

Obviously there are individuals with varying opinions, but I've never met a feminist who argues that women should be [i]kept out[/i] of the military or the trades. Maybe some wanted the vote but not military service at the time. We're talking about the 1910s here. I dunno.

And I mean... I don't want to join the military or work in a factory either. I think it's perfectly fine for a woman to not want to individually do those things because many others do.

@CountScrofula Yeah same here on your last part. I got out of factory work not because I mind doing the work but because of worker exploitation that had nothing to do with gender or feminism really. I've met both men and women that honestly like working in factories (also in the Army) but I don't for many reasons.

@CountScrofula @SatanBurger
Maybe we're misunderstaning each other. As I said in my first reply, "[b]some[/b] women want all the benefits of sex equality without the concomitant responsibilities". I like to think I work just as hard as any man and am just as dedicated to the job but I've met women who don't and aren't.

[quote]the Serbian army accepted women)[/quote]
and
[quote]I've never met a feminist who argues that women should be kept out of the military or the trades. [/quote]
Allowing women to join the military is not the same as conscripting them to fight on the front line like men were. That's what I've heard men complain about. Another complaint is that, when they do join, they're not subjuct to the same rules as men As one man asked, how many are told to "get your bloody hair cut" when they sign up?

[quote]Maybe some wanted the vote but not military service at the time.[/quote]
Exactly the point - they wanted benefits like the vote without the responsibilities like military service.

A friend gave me another example. She was buying some things from a large, well known (in the UK) DIY store. One of her purchases was fairly heavy but she had been able to put it on a trolley to take to the checkout. At the checkout, as well as the operator there was another, female, employee. She was, according to my friend, "built like a brick outhouse". She could easily have picked up the trolley with my friend's purchases (and even my friend) on it with one hand. However, the checkout operator called for "a [b]male[/b] member of staff to assist a customer." The man who arrived was half the size of the female employee but he, not she, was expected to assist. I think we can be reasonably sure male employees were not paid extra for their additional responsibilities.

@suzie1960 Not saying you meant this but I like my right to vote so I'm proud of feminists for accomplishing that. On that last part, that actually may be because of company policy. They don't say "men" directly because of discrimination laws (most businesses find ways around those laws) but some businesses I've worked for won't allow women to lift even if we can. Only from my experience I've had to sign papers to either lift with someone else or get another person to do it for me if it's a specific weight even if I could lift it. Mostly it was in supermarkets and not factories.

I've had someone straight up tell me that he won't hire me because he's afraid women can't lift power tools. I originally applied because it was a job that was about 15 to 20 hourly with no experience so I really wanted it. It would have allowed me to pay for school and save more money etc..

[big]Funny thing,[/big] about two years later I'm in customer service (this was about actually 4 months ago) and this customer comes in and he has a shirt with the business I applied to and I said "oh you work at ______." We got into a conversation and I told him yeah I was going to apply there but this one guy said he was afraid I wouldn't be able to lift power tools.

The guy just stared at me in shock and said "I bet it was _______." Then I told him I didn't really remember his name but he was certain who it was because he's like that around women and have done that to many female applicants before.

@suzie1960 Another local supermarket that's in my area I wanted to work at one point was the meat counter and always wondered why when I walked in they would direct me to cashier until I learned the real reason behind it. No matter how many applications I filled out even though they were always looking, they wouldn't hire me. It was a 12 hourly job which is why I wanted it and the hours were good. They kept wanting to give me the cashier job which was 8 hourly.

Turns out they won't hire women. I learned that from a few people that work there that there's this specific hiring manager whose in charge of the meat department who won't hire women for various stupid reasons.

This store has almost all women who are cashiers by the way.

@SatanBurger The point I was making was that men have a genuine grievance when they see us getting the good bits of equality without the bad.

[quote] On that last part, that actually may be because of company policy. They don't say "men" directly because of discrimination laws (most businesses find ways around those laws) but some businesses I've worked for won't allow women to lift even if we can. [/quote]
This checkout operator explicitly said "male" so they clearly weren't concerned about sex discrimination against men. It doesn't really matter whether it's due company policy, it's still highly sexist. We object to sexism that disadvantages us; men are now objecting to sexism that disadvantages them. I find that quite understandable.

Are you in the US? I'm in the UK. Our anti-discrimination laws are probably different from yours. I doubt any company here could get away with discriminating against women in the way you describe.

@suzie1960 [quote]The man who arrived was half the size of the female employee but he, not she, was expected to assist. I think we can be reasonably sure male employees were not paid extra for their additional responsibilities.[/quote]
Men there should be paid more to account for their additional responsibilities but, if they were, I bet the feminist would soon be up in arms about it. :( As you say, rights without responsibilities. I believe in equality but equality must mean equality.

@suzie1960 I live in the United States but regardless of country it has nothing to do with the law. If people cared about discrimination practices they wouldn't try it in the first place, they also wouldn't do it if they knew they couldn't get away with it. If they had any moral compass.

I don't assume that every business is law abiding... more companies do low down stuff to be honest but you can't prove what you can't see. I've also witnessed that and I've also witnessed people speaking out but then fired. However between your words and the companies it will be the companies hands down.

It's hard to prove because odd stuff happens when I don't have a camera. I keep reminding myself to get a secret camera low key just to have handy but I don't. Then something like that happens and I shoot myself in the foot thinking dang should have gotten that on tape.

But you never know when someone's going to try something stupid and that's the trick.