Personally I’m good with the direction of the country and looking forward to the pending Democratic Party implosion.

That would be fantastic! I agree. @rottenrobi

@rottenrobi I'll lay odds that's the message the democrats will be pushing really hard, distancing themselves from Hillary and Obama, but saying that's no reason to re-elect Trump and his new "improved swamp dwellers."

Its a harder pitch for the Republicans to talk about ethics these days, much less unity. Morality through Christianity seems like a better way to pitch a similar message, but it'd be easier for Pence to sell that than Trump.

Pence would have no chance in a presidential election. None. The evangelicals are shrinking by the minute. @MistyCee

@MistyCee true , but the democrat platform officially denounced god ... so that make it a problem to expect the left to have morality .

@jackjjackson Yup. Which is why I see things being harder for the Republicans at the moment.

Ethics, morals and unity are hard to sell for Trump, and those are all vulnerabilities for Republicans until he's out of the picture.

Populism, America First, drain the swamp, and scapegoating are all great messages, but they're getting old with a lot of voters.

Time for some new themes?

I think the same message with the eliminating of scapegoating works. @MistyCee

@TexChik I'm not at all clear where religion is a prerequisite to morality, but I doubt the morality thing is going to be a big selling point for Democrats.

It doesn't have to be, and Trump will have a really hard time making it one to bash them with.

Thr president is no Ghandi that’s for sure. @MistyCee

@jackjjackson Problem is, blaming the other guy pervades America First, draining the swamp, immigration, etc.

I'm not saying you couldn't make positive messages with those issues, or deregulation, or trickle down economics,but that's not where Trump has gone with them.

He seems to do better usually with anger and resentment than unity and positive messages.

@MistyCee I didn't know the left denounced God either. President Carter still teaches Sunday school not too far from here.

@CopperCicada Yeah, I know, but I figured making that point with [@Texchick] wouldn't lead anywhere I really want to go on this post, at least.

I really don't see the democrats changing their platform to push religion though, although I expect that they'll be working hard at their own version of the family values angle, simply because its going to be such a hard problem for Trump with Stormy out there. How both parties handle ethics and morality will be very interesting, I think, but my guess is neither one is going to jump on religion all that much.

Honestly, as much as I'd personally like to see the Anti-Muslim, Anti-Semitic, and Anti-gay themes that underlie a lot of Trump's message exploited, I don't think its a good move for the democrats to harp on it too much. A softer approach towards pushing decency, tolerance and common values will probably get them more votes than going on the attack against bigots and relgion-motivated intolerance.

Just my opinion, but attacking Archie Bunker doesn't seem like the winning play here, as much as pushing the fact that Archie, Edith, Mike and Gloria are all still family and ought to be able to prosper and live together.

@MistyCee Who moves towards the center wins. The republicans could back off on their war on drugs and their war on controlling women's reproductive rights and get somewhere. Or the democrats could drop their assault on guns and support of a welfare state and they would win. I don't see Trump in company moving an inch and I see the democrats taking advantage of that.

@Subsumedpat Which is precisely why many feel the system is broken. No real choices. Only an apparent choice-- whatever is in the middle.

@CopperCicada I don't think it is that bad, too far left or right is worse.

@Subsumedpat I'm not sure those issues are really good ones to look at as determinative. The Republicans aren't likely to give on drugs or abortion, while I'll bet the demos can make an effort to make it clear they don't want to ban all guns or want a true welfare state without losing support from their extremists on those issues.

The problem, I think, for the left won't be making compromises as much as selling sincerity with a centrist message to polarized voters and getting some of the voters who've bought the idea that all politicians are crooks.

I think, if the Democrats can keep Hillary out of it and manage their "crazies" they will have a good shot, in large part, because they're crazies aren't in power and in the news (other than on Fox, anyway).

@Subsumedpat What I'm getting at is if the DEM are able to move to the middle to "win"... and the GOP is able to move to the middle to "win"... then what are the substantial differences between the DEM and GOP?

@CopperCicada that's my point, there is no difference. It's whatever they need to say to get the voters. I mean, I know there are fundamental differences in the political parties, but with all the slander, their points become moot. To me anyway.
I know I'm not well versed in poliics, it's intense the effort it takes to know what's really going on. I don't take that time or have that commitment.
I'm always impressed with all the stuff people do know.
@MistyCee You're amazing!
@jackjjackson ☺️

@rottenrobi It's like the Arundhati Roy quote. Now she's a straight up communist probably. I'm not advocating her politics. But she nails this. From a talk before the 2004 US elections:

[quote]It's not a real choice. It's an apparent choice. Like choosing a brand of detergent. Whether you buy Ivory Snow or Tide, they're both owned by Proctor & Gamble. This doesn't mean that one takes a position that is without nuance, that... the Democrats and Republicans are the same. Of course, they're not. Neither are Tide and Ivory Snow. Tide has oxy-boosting and Ivory Snow is a gentle cleanser."[/quote]

DEM and GOP are Ivory Snow and Tide, and the people calling the real shots are the political equivalent of Proctor and Gamble. Not the electorate.

Thanks@rottenrobi. I'm really not "amazing," as much as obsessed and overwrought about where we are and how to get out of this place.

@CopperCicada I don't disagree with you that the two parties are fundamentally not that different, or even that they're both controlled by some of the same corporate and industry influences, but I do wonder about the wisdom of shouting it out too often and too loudly.

The subtle differences and branding, although superficial, are significant sometimes, for one thing, and for another, there's a real danger to the message that both sides are corrupt, so instead of reading the labels, comparing prices, etc., you should just wash your clothes in lye or something.

The political system is far from perfect, but at its best, is relatively stable and yet fluid. Revolution and crisis may have noble goals, but there's a transactional cost to ripping things apart, especially without a clear goal as to what we're going to replace it with. Very few people actually want to live without a functioning goverment or live through a revolution.

Plus, and maybe more to the point right now, talking about mysterious evil actors pulling our strings is often a tool for manipulation of the worst sort. Are there global economic and corporate forces manipulating our goverments? Sure. But that point can be used as a tool for demagogues, who really are just deciding to point it out so that they can villainize someone and get themselves power.

Assuming Trump actually isn't totally in bed with Russia, one of the reasons he's finding it hard to explain away the Russian boogeyman is that its his favorite tool. It's China, not you, that's causing our problems. It's not your fault you're job doesn't pay enough, its the Mexicans. Its a Cosmopolitan Global Elite Conspiracy.

Whew. Sorry about the rant. I'm going to go do a little work now.

@MistyCee I appreciate your views. They're logical.

I've enjoyed your discussion this morning. @MistyCee @CopperCicada

You all make good points. I think there is more of a difference than in 2004 but more difference and choice would be better. It seems the two parties always gang up on and destroy a potential third or fourth party to keep thr two party stranglehold. The Dems in my opinion have gotten beyond the ability to become kinder and gentler. Thr anger has filtered down to the next generation of potential leaders. A great example is Corey Booker’s rant at a sympathetic witness at a senate committee hearing. Bookrr’s Goal was to grandstand but he came off as mean spirited. The footprint of the far left has increased in size to be greater than the footprint of the far right. I don’t frankly understand the media’s motive in taking that side and don’t think it’s becuase they are coastal elites. Coastal elites are a problem for another discussion.

Misty, I think we get out of this place by the Trump chaos ending the “establishment” causing a rethinking by both parties of who to appeal to ans how. Pat, I think the conservatives are more likely to be able to appeal to the center than the far left because of the anger and entrenchment of the far left. Copper, until we actually are free of the professional political class I think we are subject to pretty much the same thing from both parties unless thr far left is able to seize control of the Dems which is more possible than the far right seizing control of thr GOP. If anything the far right is losing influence over time. Rob, WJC proved that whoever grabs the center wins. All, this sub thread is intersting and has a lot of thoughtful contributions. Clearly not all of us view all of these issues the same way. However all should be commended by an iLife this rational civilized discussion on this subject. @MistyCee @CopperCicada @Subsumedpat @rottenrobi

@CopperCicada In a way there is not, they all exist to spend our money just on different things.