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katielass · F
@SW-User You are correct that Stalin killed many more people but at that time it was hitler who invaded other countries and took over, killing people in the process. He was the one to stop.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@katielass Stalin didn't even end up killing as many people, turns out that was mostly cold war propaganda. Ever since the fall of the USSR when Soviet archives became available, we've been revising his numbers down.
That was always obvious tbh, between Stalin's 20+ million, and Soviet ww2 losses of 26+ million, post war Soviet Union should have been an empty wasteland, because they just didn't have the population to absorb that. But it wasn't.
Still wasn't any sort of a kindly chap.
That was always obvious tbh, between Stalin's 20+ million, and Soviet ww2 losses of 26+ million, post war Soviet Union should have been an empty wasteland, because they just didn't have the population to absorb that. But it wasn't.
Still wasn't any sort of a kindly chap.
SW-User
@QuixoticSoul The Stalin v. Hitler argument is pointless except that too many people are ignorant of Stalin's crimes against humanity. When I see kids wear the hammer and sickle on clothes to be hip I want to punch them in the face. I've stopped a couple and told them that what it represents is as bad as the swastika.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@SW-User Bwahaha that's fairly edgy in itself. USSR was what it was - but far cry from Nazism.
SW-User
@QuixoticSoul The death toll from the 1932–33 famine in Ukraine has been estimated between six million and seven million. It was largely intentional and avoidable.
Stalin invaded Poland twice. He invaded Eastern and central Europe.
Gulags: 12 million
Purges: 1.2 million
Nazism was defeated in 1945 while Stalin and the Soviet Union lived on.
Stalin invaded Poland twice. He invaded Eastern and central Europe.
Gulags: 12 million
Purges: 1.2 million
Nazism was defeated in 1945 while Stalin and the Soviet Union lived on.
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@SW-User Yes, I'm well aware. My family tree has been pruned by the two world wars, the civil war, lysenkoism, gulags, and holodomor. And unlike you, I remember the USSR first-hand, and have no illusions. But I also have context.
Holodomor was man-made (read, it was a management fuckup), not intentional. Anyone who thinks killing millions of random Russian and Ukrainian peasants was [i]the point[/i] is seriously deluded. And the most uncomfortable thing about that particular famine was that collectivization was critical for industrialization - and without Stalin's psychopathic push towards industrialization at all costs, despite massive human losses... Soviets would have lost the war - and Hitler's plans for us was extermination. This is the root of Russians' uncomfortable relationship with Stalin - he was a monster, but one without whom we might have been lost.
Poland invaded the USSR too, those were the times. But in '39 it was a move of pure self-preservation.
Your numbers are wildly overinflated - remember my original point for basic reality check - post ww2 USSR was not a wasteland.
Holodomor was man-made (read, it was a management fuckup), not intentional. Anyone who thinks killing millions of random Russian and Ukrainian peasants was [i]the point[/i] is seriously deluded. And the most uncomfortable thing about that particular famine was that collectivization was critical for industrialization - and without Stalin's psychopathic push towards industrialization at all costs, despite massive human losses... Soviets would have lost the war - and Hitler's plans for us was extermination. This is the root of Russians' uncomfortable relationship with Stalin - he was a monster, but one without whom we might have been lost.
Poland invaded the USSR too, those were the times. But in '39 it was a move of pure self-preservation.
Your numbers are wildly overinflated - remember my original point for basic reality check - post ww2 USSR was not a wasteland.
SW-User
@QuixoticSoul Not allowing people to have their crops or leave is an intentional act. If "those were the times" then you've also excused Germany. Poland's invasion of Russia was before WWII
More importantly, "Nazism" ceased being a viable political ideology after WWII. Not so with Stalinist style communism See: Cambodia, Mao's China, North Korea.
More importantly, "Nazism" ceased being a viable political ideology after WWII. Not so with Stalinist style communism See: Cambodia, Mao's China, North Korea.
SW-User
@QuixoticSoul According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 persons, of whom 681,692 were shot – an average of 1,000 executions a day
QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@SW-UserIt's about the goal, not the agency - the difference between collateral damage and a war crime.
Collectivization, or something like it, was necessary - and it needed to happen overnight. The existing agricultural system was incompatible with an industrialized society. The program was mismanaged on many levels, and priorities were cruel - industry first, at all costs. That mindset ultimately won the war, but human costs were horrific. But making mistakes and accepting losses is not the same thing as setting out to kill millions. Mens rea.
Yes, those were the times, the entire continent was a cauldron - and no, you can't apply modern standards because everyone was making moves to survive the looming massive war. But ultimately Soviet invasion of Poland was a cynical, yet defensive move to build a buffer while Hitler was looking for lebensraum and staging an attack on the USSR - and there was a massive difference between how Soviets and Nazis treated the Polish people.
[quote]More importantly, "Nazism" ceased being a viable political ideology after WWII. Not so with Stalinist style communism See: Cambodia, Mao's China, North Korea.[/quote]
Those weren't puppets - and in some cases not even really friends. Soviets didn't control what they did, and all of these nations had different ideologies when it comes to it. Actual Soviet puppet governments in the Warsaw pact, were far milder than your examples.
[quote]According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 persons, of whom 681,692 were shot – an average of 1,000 executions a day[/quote]
Yes, that was the Great Purge. Those same archives record about a million dead in the GULAG system between 1934 to 1953.
Collectivization, or something like it, was necessary - and it needed to happen overnight. The existing agricultural system was incompatible with an industrialized society. The program was mismanaged on many levels, and priorities were cruel - industry first, at all costs. That mindset ultimately won the war, but human costs were horrific. But making mistakes and accepting losses is not the same thing as setting out to kill millions. Mens rea.
Yes, those were the times, the entire continent was a cauldron - and no, you can't apply modern standards because everyone was making moves to survive the looming massive war. But ultimately Soviet invasion of Poland was a cynical, yet defensive move to build a buffer while Hitler was looking for lebensraum and staging an attack on the USSR - and there was a massive difference between how Soviets and Nazis treated the Polish people.
[quote]More importantly, "Nazism" ceased being a viable political ideology after WWII. Not so with Stalinist style communism See: Cambodia, Mao's China, North Korea.[/quote]
Those weren't puppets - and in some cases not even really friends. Soviets didn't control what they did, and all of these nations had different ideologies when it comes to it. Actual Soviet puppet governments in the Warsaw pact, were far milder than your examples.
[quote]According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 persons, of whom 681,692 were shot – an average of 1,000 executions a day[/quote]
Yes, that was the Great Purge. Those same archives record about a million dead in the GULAG system between 1934 to 1953.