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SummerDream · 31-35, F
i absolutely despise everything about islam... but making laws like this is nonsense. enforcing rules about clothing is what the IS or saudi arabia does...
not something a country that pretends to have liberty
not something a country that pretends to have liberty
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Salix75 · 46-50, F
@SummerDream I guess this law aims to address that... so that it's the same across the board. If you are an employee delivering services to the public, or are a citizen receiving services from a public employee, you must reveal your face.
CopperCicada · M
@SummerDream what is somebody wishes to not show their face because of some injury or deformity? when i was in college there was a woman who wore a scarf over her face because she was missing a good part of her face.
Salix75 · 46-50, F
@CopperCicada Not sure what to answer. There may be exclusions included in the legislation - details of the legislation aren't available yet.
Miram · 31-35, F
Covering the face isn't required in Islam. It's a cultural wear not religious despite the people defending it. Most islamic sects agree on this. And even in Muslim countries it is banned in some places.
There have been many instances of terrorists wearing that outfit to escape through the borders or execute their plans in North Africa and elsewhere. The ban has security purposes.
I wholeheartedly support the ban here and elsewhere.
There have been many instances of terrorists wearing that outfit to escape through the borders or execute their plans in North Africa and elsewhere. The ban has security purposes.
I wholeheartedly support the ban here and elsewhere.
Miram · 31-35, F
@Miram
This is actually very ironic if you know the reason that made Mohammed ask women to wear Hidjab in general.
It was a security tactic, and not because he thought men can't control their sexual urges. Rather Muslim women were being targeted by the tribes of the enemy. And the outfit at the time and in that place was only worn by high class women. Men didn't dare harassing or kidnapping high class women. They feared the consequences. So when women regardless of their class started wearing it, the harassment decreased.
The purpose of the outfit is no longer relevant today.
This is actually very ironic if you know the reason that made Mohammed ask women to wear Hidjab in general.
It was a security tactic, and not because he thought men can't control their sexual urges. Rather Muslim women were being targeted by the tribes of the enemy. And the outfit at the time and in that place was only worn by high class women. Men didn't dare harassing or kidnapping high class women. They feared the consequences. So when women regardless of their class started wearing it, the harassment decreased.
The purpose of the outfit is no longer relevant today.
CopperCicada · M
It's a tricky thing.
Scenario A: legislation which bans niqab and burqa in contexts X, Y and Z.
Scenario B: legislation which demands that individuals have fully visible facial features for security identification and so on in contexts X, Y and Z.
Both scenarios have the same outcome. In fact, Scenario B covers a broader set of problems than Scenario A. People with masks, costumes, surgical masks, and so on.
So why word it in a cultural/religious context?
Scenario A: legislation which bans niqab and burqa in contexts X, Y and Z.
Scenario B: legislation which demands that individuals have fully visible facial features for security identification and so on in contexts X, Y and Z.
Both scenarios have the same outcome. In fact, Scenario B covers a broader set of problems than Scenario A. People with masks, costumes, surgical masks, and so on.
So why word it in a cultural/religious context?
Salix75 · 46-50, F
@CopperCicada I hear you. I am uncomfortable when I can't see someone's face. But I also don't like legislation telling people what they can/can't wear etc. I'm very uncertain as to how I feel about it myself, which is part of the reason I posted this question,I guess.
Ok, I can take your point on some of those facial coverings. I guess I've just never seen it happen. In winter, I see people hop on a bus with their face covered with a scarf, and they pull it down when they flash their bus pass to the driver.
Ok, I can take your point on some of those facial coverings. I guess I've just never seen it happen. In winter, I see people hop on a bus with their face covered with a scarf, and they pull it down when they flash their bus pass to the driver.
CopperCicada · M
@Salix75 I personally think there are a whole series of religious entitlements than need to be squished.
Nothing anti-Islamic-- but you need to show your face for security reasons.
Nothing anti-Semitic-- but if you're an ultra-orthodox Jewish male, it's sort of your drama if a woman is booked into a plane seat next to you. Don't expect to be accommodated.
there are others that escape me now...
Nothing anti-Islamic-- but you need to show your face for security reasons.
Nothing anti-Semitic-- but if you're an ultra-orthodox Jewish male, it's sort of your drama if a woman is booked into a plane seat next to you. Don't expect to be accommodated.
there are others that escape me now...
Salix75 · 46-50, F
@CopperCicada I agree
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
I am sure they have their reasons for it, such as preventing someone from dressing up in one and committing crimes. They couldn't wear one and enter a bank or savings and loan business here where I live due to bank robbers using a variety of things to cover their faces. The last bank robber here wore an old man face mask, he was a high school student.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
It's racist bullshit.
Quebec has an interesting history in that it was one basically a thrall of the Catholic church. As a result, it has very, very strong ideas about secularism in state. This gets wrapped in with the typical Islamophobia you see across the west, and results in laws like this.
They're pretending this is not a law about religious garb and is just about any face covering. Obviously this is not true. It's a hateful, unnecessary, mean-spirited law. It's not going to 'free' any women, it's going to force them to stay home and hide. You don't free women by robbing them of their religious choice.
Quebec has an interesting history in that it was one basically a thrall of the Catholic church. As a result, it has very, very strong ideas about secularism in state. This gets wrapped in with the typical Islamophobia you see across the west, and results in laws like this.
They're pretending this is not a law about religious garb and is just about any face covering. Obviously this is not true. It's a hateful, unnecessary, mean-spirited law. It's not going to 'free' any women, it's going to force them to stay home and hide. You don't free women by robbing them of their religious choice.
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
True if you know the history or Quebec they would understand that it is a zenophobic law couched in supposed common sense. @CaptainCanadia
Salix75 · 46-50, F
@CaptainCanadia the issues certainly are hard to separate. But can this law - which (as I understand it) really cause so much damage if a woman only needs to uncover for 20 seconds so an employee can confirm her identity be too much to ask?
CopperCicada · M
@CaptainCanadia which is why one writes a law on the basis of facial identification and that would apply to muslim women, tamisheq men, furries with snouts, and people with masks.
SW-User
@Salix75 Ikr, it would be hateful if they're not allowed to wear the garment itself
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
This was a watered down rule of banning them for people working in the public sector I believe @SW-User
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
We are talking about a province that strictly enforced rules about English signs on stores and on labels.
Northwest · M
No shoes, no shirt, no service. We accept that.
If you want to receive a public service, where you're required to provide identify proof, then I need to see your face. If you're a public servant, and modesty requires you to cover up your face, then the same modesty rules, imply that you cannot be interacting with the general public.
If it's about a cultural custom, and you're a public servant, then I would still like to see your FACE.
If the laws is written this way, then it should not be a problem for anyone.
If you want to receive a public service, where you're required to provide identify proof, then I need to see your face. If you're a public servant, and modesty requires you to cover up your face, then the same modesty rules, imply that you cannot be interacting with the general public.
If it's about a cultural custom, and you're a public servant, then I would still like to see your FACE.
If the laws is written this way, then it should not be a problem for anyone.
BlessHerHeart · F
This message was deleted by its author.
BlessHerHeart · F
@Salix75 there are other ways to confirm an identity
katielass · F
@BlessHerHeart Uncovering ones face in order to be identifiable is not taking anyone's rights away. When you are welcomed into another's country it is with the understanding that you conform to THEIR standards, not the other way around. Not only is that the right way but to acquiesce to everyone else would be impossible.
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
@Cierzo Morocco has had a few cases of terrorism, one of the worst was the bombing of Argana Cafe right on the Djema El Fna tourist site in Marrakech. I visited that cafe when I went to Morocco and a cybercafe within a block of another cafe I went to got bombed too. The Argana bombing killed a number of tourists and some Moroccans.
bijouxbroussard · F
Salix75 · 46-50, F
@CaptainCanadia I wonder what the stats are on how many Muslim women in jobs working with the public actually cover their face? I know when there was talk of a similar national (?) law, it turned out that there were VERY few women in the affected workforces that wore either the burka (I think that was zero) or a niqab. So effectively the proposed legislation would have been useless.
bijouxbroussard · F
@CaptainCanadia I still think they have the right to do it. A hijab covers one’s head and hair while still allowing facial identification. When in Rome, etc.
JimboSaturn · 51-55, M
SW-User
Then what? Are hoodies next?
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
@Salix75 hoodies are banned when entering savings & loans or banks here in my city, as well as sunglasses, hats, face scarfs or niqabs. Hoodies can be pulled down.
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
@Salix75 It wasn't to single out any ethnic group, a real safety reasons. The high school kid went out of his way to wear an old man mask and suit to get by with his robberies.