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Mitchonthebeach1 · 26-30, M
@Bushranger they definitely wouldn’t last the night for me
Bushranger · 70-79, M
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@ArishMell I think that's correct, smaller quantities with fewer food miles. Of course, that meant that produce was more seasonal, but that's not such a bad thing. Personally, I really miss the corner shops, much more personal, less unnecessary packaging and usually nice, friendly staff. Admittedly they were more expensive than supermarkets turned out to be. But that was also in part because they had to pay the producers more. Again, not an entirely bad thing.
And a lot of packaging that is made from polystyrene could be replaced with paper based products.
And a lot of packaging that is made from polystyrene could be replaced with paper based products.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Bushranger Sadly, one of my favourite independent shops has just closed. Its owner retired and had no-one to take it on. They did use small plastic bags but to pack loose-sold meusli blends of their own from big paper sacks, dried fruits and the like.
The Co-op is on the offensive, aggressively buying small shops in order to destroy the competition. It has forced two Centra-franchise shops in my area to close - in one case deliberately opening a branch directly across the road from it, while turning an existing Co-op about a mile away over to its Nisa subsidiary. In one town I know The Co-Op bought a [i]profitable[/i] pub in order to turn it into a shop, barely a mile from another pub it had already demolished and replaced with a shop.
When it re-branded my local Co-Op as Nisa, it also replaced all the staff but proudly says its still sells Co-Op brands! One former Co-Op assistant who told me Nisa is really the Co_op, and alleged the change was no more than a pensions-liability fiddle.
.
The point about such chains is that they are extremely inflexible. They can work only to centrally-controlled, rigid purchasing menus; and refuse out of hand to support local producers. This enforces ever more, often very long, transport lines of many ranges of limited choice per range, of foods that need to be packed in sealed plastic and the like to survive the extensive stores and transport systems entailed.
'
[The Nisa chain was its own but became wholly-owned by The Co-Operative Group; an English company now very far from it and Nisa's original local co-operative ethos by which the customer was also a sort of shareholder. Nisa also uses, or used, the LOCO, CK Foodstores and Costcutter fascias on some shops.
Centra is owned by the Musgrave Group, based in the Republic of Ireland.
Centra branches are run by franchisees allowed some freedom to buy from local producers; and most of the milk I buy is thus. The Co-Op / Nisa chain is like Tesco, Morrisons, Asda etc., in refusing to do that.]
The Co-op is on the offensive, aggressively buying small shops in order to destroy the competition. It has forced two Centra-franchise shops in my area to close - in one case deliberately opening a branch directly across the road from it, while turning an existing Co-op about a mile away over to its Nisa subsidiary. In one town I know The Co-Op bought a [i]profitable[/i] pub in order to turn it into a shop, barely a mile from another pub it had already demolished and replaced with a shop.
When it re-branded my local Co-Op as Nisa, it also replaced all the staff but proudly says its still sells Co-Op brands! One former Co-Op assistant who told me Nisa is really the Co_op, and alleged the change was no more than a pensions-liability fiddle.
.
The point about such chains is that they are extremely inflexible. They can work only to centrally-controlled, rigid purchasing menus; and refuse out of hand to support local producers. This enforces ever more, often very long, transport lines of many ranges of limited choice per range, of foods that need to be packed in sealed plastic and the like to survive the extensive stores and transport systems entailed.
'
[The Nisa chain was its own but became wholly-owned by The Co-Operative Group; an English company now very far from it and Nisa's original local co-operative ethos by which the customer was also a sort of shareholder. Nisa also uses, or used, the LOCO, CK Foodstores and Costcutter fascias on some shops.
Centra is owned by the Musgrave Group, based in the Republic of Ireland.
Centra branches are run by franchisees allowed some freedom to buy from local producers; and most of the milk I buy is thus. The Co-Op / Nisa chain is like Tesco, Morrisons, Asda etc., in refusing to do that.]
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
I am sorry, but you cannot make sweeping statements like "plastic is killing animals".
That suggests lacking understanding one of the most ubiquitous class of materials used for all manner of purposes from genuinely serious to wastefully trivial.
And no, I have no connection with the petro-chemical, plastics or boat-building industries.
'
It's only a few, certain plastic [i]types[/i] and [i]forms[/i] out of a very large range manufactured with all sort of different properties for different classes of use, that are "killing animals".
The prime villains are polythene bags eaten by some animals (e.g. turtles in the sea, mistaking them for jellyfish), "micro-beads" used as fillers and mild abrasives in toiletries, and plastic [i]shapes[/i] that can entrap animals (e.g. can-binding rings, lost/discarded fishing equipment).
None are toxic, but kill by internal obstruction or trapping. Micro-beads are small enough to be swallowed by, but big enough to obstruct the alimentary canals of, the tiny ostracods and similar plankton-eating sea-animals whose swarms are food for larger fish.
'
Some plastics are salvageable, but by no means all; and those that are, degrade over only a few cycles. Some become re-useable only as fuels, if burnt in specially-constructed furnaces to minimise pollution and use the heat properly.
+++
Some, mainly the thermo-setting plastic, cannot be salvaged or effectively burnt. Perhaps the largest by volume is fibre-glass and now too, carbon-fibre composites. Both are of fibrous material encapsulated in synthetic-resin.
Fibre-glass is extensive in architectural, vehicle and marine uses. For example think not only of serious uses in commercial and naval vessels, but also all those boats from humble dinghies to pretentious "gin palaces" in huge marinas, with many barely used from one year's end to the next. It is common in sports equipment and industrial safety-helmets. It is the normal material for the printed-circuit boards in electronic equipment, no doubt including whatever you are reading this on.
Outdoors, it breaks down very, very slowly, over decades, into tiny shards of resin and glass fibres. Buried or on the sea-bed it probably lasts indefinitely, and though I DO NOT advocate such dumping, at least sunken vessels are soon colonised by plants and animals. The resin is flammable unless containing a combustion-inhibitor; but unless burnt at a temperature that fuses the glass, the ash is a very unpleasant mass of tiny glass needles.
Carbon-fibre is much less dense than glass-fibre, so becoming a major material for vehicle and aircraft parts, sports equipment and yes - wind-turbine blades. It may be too new to know its long-term degradation.
'
It's worth considering two things barely mentioned, if we want to play our part in "saving the planet" (though if we want to discuss a very serious technical topic seriously, we don't use baby-talk). These are:-
- Our lives are permeated throughout by plastics of all sorts but [i]even before [/i]we see the plastic bag, medical instrument, toy or mere gee-gaw,
- By the products of principally five, natural minerals: coal, petroleum, and the ores of iron, copper and aluminium. (Plus many others of course.)
We could be said to be still living in the Iron Age because without iron and steel, we cannot make or move anything else in any practical sense. We would have no electricity, clean water, decent homes, sanitation etc. either. We cannot escape these, nor that [i]all[/i] the pat "solutions" offered by the more strident, less-analytical "climate protestors" still rely heavily on at least some of those five minerals.
Basically we are a run-away population wanting more and more of less and less; and despite overall reductions in consumption right left and centre, very profligate. Those, and resulting waste, form some of our biggest headaches; but many of the alternatives offered are not as virtuous as they seem.
We need to solve these very serious problems - but even to play our tiny part as private individuals, we all need to THINK well beyond immediate use and result; and UNDERSTAND at least to a lay level, basic science and engineering principles.
For example, the differences between fuel, energy and power; the fundamental nature of all energy types, by which the whole universe operates; the engineering meaning of "efficiency".
Otherwise it's to Hell in a Handcart (hand-made to last, from home-grown timber).
'
Still, once the world's petroleum and coal deposits are exhausted or if everyone obeys the wishes of that very naïve Swedish lass to "leave it in the ground", it will be no longer possible to make plastics or new iron! Then what.... ? Don't ask Greta. She won't know.
That suggests lacking understanding one of the most ubiquitous class of materials used for all manner of purposes from genuinely serious to wastefully trivial.
And no, I have no connection with the petro-chemical, plastics or boat-building industries.
'
It's only a few, certain plastic [i]types[/i] and [i]forms[/i] out of a very large range manufactured with all sort of different properties for different classes of use, that are "killing animals".
The prime villains are polythene bags eaten by some animals (e.g. turtles in the sea, mistaking them for jellyfish), "micro-beads" used as fillers and mild abrasives in toiletries, and plastic [i]shapes[/i] that can entrap animals (e.g. can-binding rings, lost/discarded fishing equipment).
None are toxic, but kill by internal obstruction or trapping. Micro-beads are small enough to be swallowed by, but big enough to obstruct the alimentary canals of, the tiny ostracods and similar plankton-eating sea-animals whose swarms are food for larger fish.
'
Some plastics are salvageable, but by no means all; and those that are, degrade over only a few cycles. Some become re-useable only as fuels, if burnt in specially-constructed furnaces to minimise pollution and use the heat properly.
+++
Some, mainly the thermo-setting plastic, cannot be salvaged or effectively burnt. Perhaps the largest by volume is fibre-glass and now too, carbon-fibre composites. Both are of fibrous material encapsulated in synthetic-resin.
Fibre-glass is extensive in architectural, vehicle and marine uses. For example think not only of serious uses in commercial and naval vessels, but also all those boats from humble dinghies to pretentious "gin palaces" in huge marinas, with many barely used from one year's end to the next. It is common in sports equipment and industrial safety-helmets. It is the normal material for the printed-circuit boards in electronic equipment, no doubt including whatever you are reading this on.
Outdoors, it breaks down very, very slowly, over decades, into tiny shards of resin and glass fibres. Buried or on the sea-bed it probably lasts indefinitely, and though I DO NOT advocate such dumping, at least sunken vessels are soon colonised by plants and animals. The resin is flammable unless containing a combustion-inhibitor; but unless burnt at a temperature that fuses the glass, the ash is a very unpleasant mass of tiny glass needles.
Carbon-fibre is much less dense than glass-fibre, so becoming a major material for vehicle and aircraft parts, sports equipment and yes - wind-turbine blades. It may be too new to know its long-term degradation.
'
It's worth considering two things barely mentioned, if we want to play our part in "saving the planet" (though if we want to discuss a very serious technical topic seriously, we don't use baby-talk). These are:-
- Our lives are permeated throughout by plastics of all sorts but [i]even before [/i]we see the plastic bag, medical instrument, toy or mere gee-gaw,
- By the products of principally five, natural minerals: coal, petroleum, and the ores of iron, copper and aluminium. (Plus many others of course.)
We could be said to be still living in the Iron Age because without iron and steel, we cannot make or move anything else in any practical sense. We would have no electricity, clean water, decent homes, sanitation etc. either. We cannot escape these, nor that [i]all[/i] the pat "solutions" offered by the more strident, less-analytical "climate protestors" still rely heavily on at least some of those five minerals.
Basically we are a run-away population wanting more and more of less and less; and despite overall reductions in consumption right left and centre, very profligate. Those, and resulting waste, form some of our biggest headaches; but many of the alternatives offered are not as virtuous as they seem.
We need to solve these very serious problems - but even to play our tiny part as private individuals, we all need to THINK well beyond immediate use and result; and UNDERSTAND at least to a lay level, basic science and engineering principles.
For example, the differences between fuel, energy and power; the fundamental nature of all energy types, by which the whole universe operates; the engineering meaning of "efficiency".
Otherwise it's to Hell in a Handcart (hand-made to last, from home-grown timber).
'
Still, once the world's petroleum and coal deposits are exhausted or if everyone obeys the wishes of that very naïve Swedish lass to "leave it in the ground", it will be no longer possible to make plastics or new iron! Then what.... ? Don't ask Greta. She won't know.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Carazaa Oh yes, I don't dispute that fact, and plastic bags are among the worst culprits. It is the scapegoating of "plastics" full-stop with which I disagree.
The tiniest plastic particles choke the minute ocean animals relied on as food by larger creatures up to the fish being hunted by humans to death.
Supermarkets and other large shops in the UK now have to sell carrier-bags (typically at 5p a time) with encouragement to make the bags last more than just one trip.
'
Co-incidentally I saw a TV documentary recently about the problems of land-fill sites, and not least their corollary of appalling waste of re-usable materials. Plastics - oh yes. Also though, the the metals in portable telephones and other small domestic electronic instruments, merely thrown in the rubbish by owners I regard as definitely NOT "tech savvy", to use their silly slang.
These metals are steel, aluminium, copper, tin, lead, gold and various finite-resource, rare-earth elements. Many are difficult and costly to find and extract, some from very poor and unstable countries... and the programme quoted an "average" of an appallingly-low 2 years only for a "smart"-phone...?
Why only two years? The documentary did not go into that as it was not its remit. I suspect the reason is as shallow as mere fashion, backed by wilful premature obsolescence by the instrument manufacturers and Internet-software providers.
The tiniest plastic particles choke the minute ocean animals relied on as food by larger creatures up to the fish being hunted by humans to death.
Supermarkets and other large shops in the UK now have to sell carrier-bags (typically at 5p a time) with encouragement to make the bags last more than just one trip.
'
Co-incidentally I saw a TV documentary recently about the problems of land-fill sites, and not least their corollary of appalling waste of re-usable materials. Plastics - oh yes. Also though, the the metals in portable telephones and other small domestic electronic instruments, merely thrown in the rubbish by owners I regard as definitely NOT "tech savvy", to use their silly slang.
These metals are steel, aluminium, copper, tin, lead, gold and various finite-resource, rare-earth elements. Many are difficult and costly to find and extract, some from very poor and unstable countries... and the programme quoted an "average" of an appallingly-low 2 years only for a "smart"-phone...?
Why only two years? The documentary did not go into that as it was not its remit. I suspect the reason is as shallow as mere fashion, backed by wilful premature obsolescence by the instrument manufacturers and Internet-software providers.
Mitchonthebeach1 · 26-30, M
@ArishMell I don’t think they could ever eliminate plastic
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Mitchonthebeach1 I agree. The problem is what to do with the stuff when It's no longer a serviceable; but most of the pollution it causes is by poor, lazy or wilfully negligent disposal.
Eventually though we won't have the raw materials for most synthetic plastics of all types, either by depletion or choice, but no-one seems to be considering that.
Eventually though we won't have the raw materials for most synthetic plastics of all types, either by depletion or choice, but no-one seems to be considering that.
BlueVeins · 22-25
Being dependent on a pair of climate change deniers, there's only so much I can do, but I do what I can. I recycle and stuff whenever possible, yeah, and I eat a mostly plant-based diet. I very rarely use disposable water bottles or plastic bags. I always opt for the stairs instead of the elevator when I'm up in college.
FloridaGuy · 46-50, M
Sweden incinerates half of its trash; a less efficient method than recycling. But the CO2 output of the generally accepted clean incinerators is more than burning coal per megawatt produced. Dealing with waste produced is an important study, but must be coordinated with a focus on reducing waste created.
Carazaa · F
@FloridaGuy Sweden tries to NOT recycle, but reuse.
FloridaGuy · 46-50, M
Reuse how? @Carazaa
Carazaa · F
@Carazaa Many ways, Ill see if I can copy articles. Each person has very little trash or recycled. They don't buy a lot of plastic they reuse bottles, bags, etc. This is something my grandparents and everyone started a long time ago. Its part of Swedish culture. There is hardly anything in the trash cans, or the recycle bins. The government give tax breaks for receipts that you repaired instead of buying a new tv etc.
CopperCicada · M
Because of my work, I think a lot about these things.
I generate very little waste as a household, especially now that I am single. I don't even need to take the trash and recycle bins out on a regular basis.
But I'm told this is a very regressive attitude by some, and a positive thing by others. So there's that.
I generate very little waste as a household, especially now that I am single. I don't even need to take the trash and recycle bins out on a regular basis.
But I'm told this is a very regressive attitude by some, and a positive thing by others. So there's that.
Carazaa · F
@CopperCicada fabulous!
Carazaa · F
@CopperCicada Eating less meat helps, yes.
xixgun · M
I live in America. They just take it away, we have no idea where