Off shoring the Holocaust to Palestine - was it a good idea? Do you think Europe should be held accountable for the results?

@ThePatientAnarchist no, because they didn't cease the Final Solution - they're still at it. The resettlements I call ethnic cleansing seem normal for white bread Americans who deny their own removals and lie about what made them Americans.

@Roundandroundwego The Nazi holocaust was a systematic and nearly successful attempt to murder an entire people. In several years, it succeeded in killing a majority of the Jews of Europe, a third of the Jewish population of the world. Nothing on that scale or with that focused intention has happened in Palestine. I am not disputing the horror of what Israel has done to the Palestinians, but positing an equivalence is not helpful for understanding either horror.

@Roundandroundwego While I recognize that Israel is doing a genocide against the Palestinians, it's obvi a different genocide than the Holocaust, even if the motives are very similar.
We need to be as real as possible with this. We can compare genocides, but no, this isn't a continuation of the Holocaust.

@ThePatientAnarchist attempted removal, the state of Gaza - not close for you, okay. But most people think that's just denialism and genocidal Zionism on display. Plus there's that direct line problem of the actual Holocaust survivors not missing a beat on the way to trying to remove Palestinians. And Palestine. So, not really deniable, the Israel of today is the final solution exported to Palestine.

@BohemianBabe I don't see how the motives are similar. The Nazis were not after land that Jews lived on.

@ThePatientAnarchist it's not like Germany didn't arm Israel every week since 1948 to avoid having the international nation of Jews LIVING in Europe! Deny. It's very okay with Nazis, as well!

@ThePatientAnarchist True, but the Nazis saw Jews as the enemy for racial reasons. They believed that the Jews were basically genetically programmed to be evil, plus they believed only Germanic people should live in Germany. This is how Zionists view Arabs. It doesn't matter that so many Palestinians were born and raised in Israel, they still have to leave because Israel is for Jews.

Also, the Nazis believed that the Jews were secretly controlling the Soviet Union. So they did see Lebensraum as taking land from Jews. And of course, the Holocaust also includes the many Slavs who were killed because they were considered racially inferior.

@BohemianBabe Your characterization of Zionist views of Arabs applies at most to a fanatical minority of Zionists. Whereas the view of Jews that you describe was intrinsic to the Nazi world-view.

@ThePatientAnarchist I think pretty much all Zionists have this view. It's kinda impossible not too. Zionism is about Jews having an ethnostate on land that was majority Arab. It's one thing to have an ethnostate when the ethnic group in question is already a huge majority. But to make a country into an ethnostate for a different ethnicity, it's almost impossible to do that without systematic racism and war crimes.

@BohemianBabe I agree with you that there is systemic racism and there have been war crimes -- more and more recently.

But that does not mean it is correct to equate Nazi and Zionist ideology.


Zionists/Israelis do not see Arabs/Palestinians as the enemy for racial reasons. They tend to see them as the enemy for practical reasons, because of the conflict with them, over land, which has been going on for some hundred years now.

Zionists/Israelis do not, in general, believe that Arabs/Palestinians are genetically evil. That is certainly not part of mainstream Zionist ideology.

Zionists/Israelis do not believe that only Jewish people should live in the Land of Israel. Witness their cultivation of some non-Jewish groups like the Druze, the reliance on Arab labour in early times and on foreign labour (paid labour, not enslavement like Jews who were forced to work for the Nazis), the participation of Arab parties in the Knesset, etc.

@Roundandroundwego Don't be obnoxious. They are not "identical" either in ideas or in practical consequences.

@ThePatientAnarchist
Nazism and Zionism shouldn't be equated, but they are similar. They're both forms of Fascism that rely heavily on racism.


By why exactly are they fighting over land? It's because Zionists believe Arabs shouldn't be in Israel. Israel could just end the apartheid system, give Palestinians the same rights as Jews, and work on improving Israel as a multiethnic Democracy. But that would go against Zionism, which is essentially Jewish Supremacy.
That's why Zionists say Israel should be a "Jewish State." What that actually means is Israel should be an ethnostate.


I'm sure for a lot of Zionists, it's more of a blind spot. They don't want to see themselves as racist, but in practice, these are the beliefs they act on. It's like how a lot of Americans don't see themselves as racist, but then they'll vote for Trump because they want to kick brown people out. People are complicated, they're not always honest with themselves.
But yeah, if you listen to how Zionists talk about Palestinians, they definitely see them as racially inferior, evil, and not worthy of living in Israel.


Every racist and/or fascist government has made exceptions. Nazi Germany even made exceptions for certain Jews. That doesn't change the overall ideology. Also, I guarantee that if Israel eliminates every Palestinian, other groups will be next. They'll go after the Druze, other Arabs, and even Sephardi Jews and Mizrahi Jews.

@BohemianBabe Du hast leider einfach nicht Recht; du verlassts dich auf Stereotypen,

Do a simple thought experiment. Suppose the Holy Land actually had been empty of people when the Zionist movement began. (Not an impossible situation historically -- Iceland was empty when the Vikings got there; as far as I know, New Zealand was empty when the Maoris got there.)

Would there therefore not have been a Zionist movement, because it's all about racism?

On the contrary -- there would have been a Zionist movement and it would have established a State of Israel and provided a homeland for any Jews who wanted to live there.

In other words: the point of Zionism is not hatred of anyone; the point of Zionism is creating a home for the Jewish People.

Has it become entangled with racism, have terrible things been done? Yes. Is that what it's all about? Emphatically not.

@BohemianBabe They're both nationalism with a belief that you're exceptional and superior. You just don't want it to get a review, so you complicated it; murka is fascist and supremacist. Easy peasy for leftists, you will never know!!!

@ThePatientAnarchist In the hypothetical example you gave, Zionism probably would have turned out differently. But Zionism was formed in a world where Israel was already populated by Arabs. This is what I meant when earlier I mentioned that Zionism kinda has to be genocidal because it's about building an ethnostate in a land that was already full of a different ethnic group. I'm sure there are plenty of anti-genocide Jews who would support Zionism if Israel was empty and it was just about moving there. But in the world we live in, you have to choose being being anti-genocide and having an Israel with little to no minorities.

Also, this point:
There are plenty of countries where Jews can make a home. Jews can have homes and communities in America. What Zionism is really about is an ethnostate for Jews.

White Nationalists often make the same argument about America. They say they just want America to be a home for white people, they often even use the term "ethnostate." But America has already become so multiracial and multiethnic, that it can't really be an ethnostate without genocide or at least ethnic cleansing.

@BohemianBabe Jews making a home in various countries is not the same as Jews, as a people, having a home. And you know very well that making a home in other countries has often turned out very badly for Jews.

@ThePatientAnarchist So when you say "Jews, as a people, having a home," you mean an ethnostate. But how do you have an ethnostate in a multiethnic country without abusing people on a mass scale?
How would America, a country which is now multiethnic and multiracial, be a white ethnostate without ethnic cleansing?

@BohemianBabe Again, we are not in disagreement that in fact the establishment of the State of Israel has led to abusing people on a mass scale. We are in disagreement about whether that is the point, or inevitable.
A home for the Jewish people does not in fact need to be a unitary ethnostate. The Holy Land could, imaginably, be a homeland for everyone who lives there. If it were a land where Jews could live as a free, self-determining people, alongside or among other people, that would fulfill the vision of some forms of Zionism.

@ThePatientAnarchist
I don't think that was the point. The point is to have an ethnostate for Jews. But in a land that is already multiethnic, the mass abuse is inevitable. And that's what caused Zionism to kinda evolve into a form of Fascism. If it was possible to have a Jewish ethnostate without mass violence, Zionism would probably be just another form of Nationalism without the Fascism.


Sure, but then it wouldn't be a "Jewish State." It would be a multiethnic Democracy like America. That's not what Zionists want.

[media=https://youtu.be/9B-ILm-NP0s]

Zionists hate Zohran Mamdani for this reason.

@BohemianBabe You keep generalizing about "Zionists" and that's simply false.
Ahad HaAm was a Zionist, Martin Buber was a Zionist, Yeshayahu Leibowitz was a Zionist, Rabbi Menachem Froman was a Zionist, Vivian Silver was a Zionist. None of them, or many others, match your generalizations.
The Israeli Jewish leaders and activists in groups like Women Wage Peace, A Land For All, Standing Together, and others are working for a shared present and future between Israelis and Palestinians. They may or may not self-define as Zionists but they want Israeli Jewish society to continue to exist in the Land of Israel.
I respect you, but I haven't seen any indication that you are familiar with the diversity of Zionist thought or with Israeli society today. If you are not, I urge you to learn more.

@ThePatientAnarchist If that's the case, then those people are the exceptions, not the rule. And like you said, they don't even identify as Zionists. The vast majority of people who do identify as Zionists believe that Israel should be an ethnostate for Jews, not just a land where Jews can live.

Personally, I believe a movement is defined by the people in it. Zionism isn't defined by some dictionary definition from a hundred years ago, it's defined by the Zionists of today. But even if we are going to look to the past, Theodor Herzl is generally recognized as the founder of Zionism. He was an Ethnic Nationalist who wanted Israel to be reformed specifically as an ethnostate for Jews.

@ThePatientAnarchist exporting the final solution to Palestine- good idea, or just a way to destroy international law and restore ignorance and brutality?