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A story of Hannibal and Roman evenge.

What have the Romans never done for us? Well, you were Carthaginian, then it was a brutal, deliberate and systematic annihilation of your entire civilisation. Proof perhaps that the human condition has always had some extremely vengeful and cruel elements. Swords and spears are sufficient tools to commit genocide provided that you have soldiers conditioned to despise and dehumanise the enemy enough.

The Punic Wars took place between 264 and 146 BC and were fought by the then early Roman Empire and Carthage, her first major rival. The Carthaginians lost all three wars so why was Rome so intent on revenge? In one word: Hannibal.

The Second Punic War was the most famous of the three conflicts and took Roman Empire closer to collapse than at any time before its eventual fall over six hundred years later. Though the Romans (even then) had superior population numbers, economic might and a small technological advantage they were taken to the brink of destruction by one historically famous general.

The city of Carthage was based in what is now Tunisia and they were a seafaring trader nation who resented the Romans for dominating the Mediterranean since the end of the First Punic War. Hannibal was born the son of a general and eventually inherited his father's army and command of the Carthaginian force in eastern Spain. After disputes with the Romans, Hannibal marched his army north and famously crossed the Alps to engage his enemy in Italy. This was a brave or crazy move, depending on how you look at it. He lost most of his elephants and half of his men to desertions and frostbite. Nonetheless, he arrived on the Italian Peninsula with a small and committed force ready to take on the might of the Roman Empire. A task seemingly much more daunting than marching elephants over any mountain range.

Unpanicked by the young and insignificant general who was leading a force of African barbarians (as the Romans saw them) the Senate sent an army to crush him. They badly underestimated their opponents and lost. Then lost again and again. This was shocking to the Romans who generally didn't lose battles. The Senate recognised they had a serious opponent on their hands who was rampaging across their country and that this now demanded an equally serious reaction. So this time they mustered a military force so big that it couldn't possibly lose. Only it did, in fact, it got massacred by an army half of it's size.

At Cannae, the Romans were led by a reckless general who wanted to go on the offensive. Seeing that Hannibal had made a seemingly ridiculous error by placing his weakest troops in the centre, he ordered a straightforward assault. Early signs were good as the Gaullist mercenaries in the middle of the Carthaginian line fell back in the early skirmishes and were unable to live with the Roman charge. The army moved forward... straight into Hannibal's trap. The elite African spearmen on either side moved into the Romon flanks cutting them down and crashing the army inward. Meanwhile, the Cathigianian cavalry had routed their Roman counterparts and charged into the rear of the Roman line. The next few hours were slaughtered as an army of 100,000 was surrounded and trying desperately to retreat inwards with nowhere to retreat. Only about 15,000 survived by being able to fight their way out of the circle of death.

Ironically, the Carthaginians went on to lose the war. Hannibal was never great at taking Roman cities and was eventually ground down exhaustion as the Romans avoided taking on his army directly. The rest of the Carthaginian generals were crap and his city was never able to support him. The Romans eventually discovered Scipio Africanus, their own world-class general, and inflicted on Hannibal a narrow but decisive defeat at the Battle of Zama.

The Romans never forgave Hannibal though. They eventually tracked him down at one of the Greek City-states and this now old man was forced to commit suicide to avoid capture. They never forgave Carthage either.

Ostensibly, Romans really didn't need to fight the Third Punic War because Carthage was no longer a threat. It no longer had an empire or any substantial army. By contrast, Rome had power over Greece and had no notable rival. And yet...the hatred and paranoia ran deep. Upon finding a weak pretext, they engaged in a nearly three-year-long siege of the city, eventually starving it into capitulation. Once inside, the Romans indiscriminately butchered anyone they could find and burned every building to the ground. They left a team of Romans based on the site for years, breaking bricks and tearing up anything that didn't burn. This was about fifty years after the second punic war

A few prisoners were taken into slavery but no records or books were left. This was deliberate because we know that the Romans wanted to exterminate Carthage and also its memory. We only know that the empire itself existed from Roman records. Surely, the ultimate case of history is being written only by the winners. Like the Mayans at a time long after, this was a long-standing civilization whose timeline reached a hard full stop. History is an interesting thing but it often is brutally cruel.
Changeisgonnacome · 61-69, F
Please don't use Napoleonic types from fascist areas of the Mediterranean as the model for our politics.
Changeisgonnacome · 61-69, F
@firefall the local people like their home, they get tricked into standing up for it against Invaders by starting to fight like the invader, the people become nationalist, the whole population is now a tool waiting for the next chic new system or general to use it.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Changeisgonnacome I wasn't actually making a political post. Given he was an imperialist warmonger, Hannibal is an awkward person to admire for me.
Changeisgonnacome · 61-69, F
@Burnley123 he's a character that reminds me of our empire at certain times.
firefall · 61-69, M
Carthage is a myth, just a conspiracy by roman-hating historians. Also, it was evil and sacrified babies to Ba'al. And they cheated.
firefall · 61-69, M
@Changeisgonnacome Sorry, I was trying to be humorous about the idiocy of modern politics & conspiracy theories, not being serious
Changeisgonnacome · 61-69, F
@firefall it's funny.
This message was deleted by the author of the main post.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
The Fall of Carthage by Adrian Goldsworthy is a really good book, for anyone interested.

There are also good Youtube videos if this is too heavy. There are loads and it depends on how in-depth you want to go but I will recommend:

Edit: Content removed after valid criticism of some of the details. The book is good. :-)
firefall · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 Varro is regarded as reckless because it didn't work: if it had come off, he'd be regarded as visionary. I think the odds of it working were low, but not nil: and the political atmosphere at Rome wouldn't permit Paullus & Varro to completely avoid a battle - Fabius could do this (politically) because of the wipe out at Cannae.

if Paullus had his way, a battle would have occurred somewhat later, but I'm not sure the result would have been very different.

And yeah, even at Zama, if the Numidian horse had stayed loyal, I'm not sure Scipio wins that - tho he was superbly skilled, so probably not a loss. But the biggest headache for Hannibal at Zama was the loss of most of his disciplined core of Libyan foot, IIRC (it's a few decades since I read up on it in depth).
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@firefall Your knowledge is impressive but I still can't see getting massacred by an army half your size as a forgivable loss. The Romans forgave Varro because they were aggressive AF in their military ideology but really? To surround and massacre an army half your size is excellent generalship but you are not going to achieve that against an intelligent opponent.

Literally, any other strategy could not have had worse results for the Romans than what happened at Cannae. Zama proved that Hannibal was beatable. Scipio had a more experienced force (inc. Cannae vets!) but no numerical advantage. I'm sure you'd agree that Varro would have lost Zama.
firefall · 61-69, M
@Burnley123 Oh yes, definitely
Havesomefun2 · 56-60, M
Sorry u went down (to all that might see football)
Havesomefun2 · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 should have kept him
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Havesomefun2 I was against his sacking but the team did play a lot better after he went. I'm probably going to do a long post on this in the next few days.
Havesomefun2 · 56-60, M
@Burnley123 it always happens
Havesomefun2 · 56-60, M
Remember the monty pyton sketch
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Havesomefun2 Yep. You got the reference lol.
Riemann · 31-35, M
Learned something.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Riemann Thank you for reading.👍

 
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