The U.S. won’t back down from the challenge of Putin and Hamas
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Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
Same old same old.
Where was this passion for those poor bastards in Afghanistan who were left to fight for themselves with the Taliban closing in ?
Neither Israel nor Palestine is interested in anything other than the destruction of the other.
That's a mindset handed down generation after generation
No settlement is ever going to be agreed on because we know from previous bitter experience that while one group is happy to have the 'group photograph of peace with today's U S. President' (how many of those lay in the archives ?) The next generation of extremist is already assured because you've done nothing that addresses that.
Where was this passion for those poor bastards in Afghanistan who were left to fight for themselves with the Taliban closing in ?
Neither Israel nor Palestine is interested in anything other than the destruction of the other.
That's a mindset handed down generation after generation
No settlement is ever going to be agreed on because we know from previous bitter experience that while one group is happy to have the 'group photograph of peace with today's U S. President' (how many of those lay in the archives ?) The next generation of extremist is already assured because you've done nothing that addresses that.
Northwest · M
@Picklebobble2 There is no Palestine today, and that's the problem.
There is a solution, and it's called a 2-state solution, with full autonomy provided to a Palestinan state, free from both Hamas and Israel.
This is the only acceptable solution post Hamas war, and this is what the Biden administration will be pushing for. Netanyahu will be gone soon.
There is a solution, and it's called a 2-state solution, with full autonomy provided to a Palestinan state, free from both Hamas and Israel.
This is the only acceptable solution post Hamas war, and this is what the Biden administration will be pushing for. Netanyahu will be gone soon.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
@Northwest .....only to be replaced by the [b]next[/b] one.
There's nothing coming out of Israel that i've heard that suggests there's even an appetite for peace.
There's nothing coming out of Israel that i've heard that suggests there's even an appetite for peace.
We're going to need another 4 years of well intentioned leadership, at a minimum, to carry that out.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
I can see why he's trying to conflate the two (to get Congress to approve the latest funding bill) but really they have very little in common , no matter how hard he tries to suggest otherwise.
Also , if he was so keen on resurrecting the myth of the two state solution then why has he done precisely nothing to address it in his first term. And how does he reconcile that idea with the fact that Netanyahu and his Govt. are implacably opposed to any kind of Palestinian State ever ?
Also , if he was so keen on resurrecting the myth of the two state solution then why has he done precisely nothing to address it in his first term. And how does he reconcile that idea with the fact that Netanyahu and his Govt. are implacably opposed to any kind of Palestinian State ever ?
Northwest · M
@RodionRomanovitch [quote]why has he done precisely nothing to address it in his first term[/quote]
First term? You mean this term, because in three months, he will have been in office for 2 years only.
The Biden administration has been doing plenty about a 2-state solution, part of the reason why Netanyahu was only invited to the White House a couple of weeks prior to the Oct 7th attack, and the objective was to tell him that his only choice is a 2-state solution, crowned with a deal involving Saudi Arabia, negotiated by the US.
Netanyahu is now effectively gone. The middle right that supported on the grounds of security, dropped him. Even the hateful Sheldon Adelson's legacy papers are calling him unfit to lead.
First term? You mean this term, because in three months, he will have been in office for 2 years only.
The Biden administration has been doing plenty about a 2-state solution, part of the reason why Netanyahu was only invited to the White House a couple of weeks prior to the Oct 7th attack, and the objective was to tell him that his only choice is a 2-state solution, crowned with a deal involving Saudi Arabia, negotiated by the US.
Netanyahu is now effectively gone. The middle right that supported on the grounds of security, dropped him. Even the hateful Sheldon Adelson's legacy papers are calling him unfit to lead.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
@Northwest Yeah I meant this term , and it will be three years soon not two.
From what I've observed Biden has expended no capital at all in pushing Netanyahu towards a two-state solution (probably because he knew it would be a complete waste of time) and was happy enough to go along with the Trump policy re:the Abram accords and basically ignoring Palestinian claims to Statehood. I'm not sure where you get the idea that he was seriously pushing towards an eventual two state resolution , apart of course from the obligatory clichés that they are all so fond of , and which are meaningless.
From what I've observed Biden has expended no capital at all in pushing Netanyahu towards a two-state solution (probably because he knew it would be a complete waste of time) and was happy enough to go along with the Trump policy re:the Abram accords and basically ignoring Palestinian claims to Statehood. I'm not sure where you get the idea that he was seriously pushing towards an eventual two state resolution , apart of course from the obligatory clichés that they are all so fond of , and which are meaningless.
Northwest · M
@RodionRomanovitch not true. The White House has been clear about the 2-state solution. But you can choose your own sources.
Even now, and despite what Netanyahu says, the US is clear about what it wants to see post Netanyahu.
Even now, and despite what Netanyahu says, the US is clear about what it wants to see post Netanyahu.
starmitzy · 51-55, F
and who agitated Putin and Hamas to begin with?
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Northwest · M
@GrinNude There is no question that Palestinians were repressed, roughed up, bullied and made to feel inferior. While this was not an official policy, soldiers, much like certain cops on our streets, abused their power, and much like our discriminatory police boards, Israel's establishment looked the other way.
I see a debate here, trying to establish that apartheid does not apply to Israel, because it means racial discrimination, when the Israeli and Palestinian people are the same race, if you take Middle Eastern Jews into consideration.
However, the term “apartheid”, an Afrikaans word, derived from the French term “mettre à part”, literally translated to “separating, setting apart,” and this is what Israel has been doing.
Having said all this, Hamas' raison d'être has absolutely nothing to do with oppression. They started to make sure the peace process is sabotaged. We can have the chicken and egg argument here, but the Palestinian Authority knows about Hamas first hand, and fought brutal battles against them.
I see a debate here, trying to establish that apartheid does not apply to Israel, because it means racial discrimination, when the Israeli and Palestinian people are the same race, if you take Middle Eastern Jews into consideration.
However, the term “apartheid”, an Afrikaans word, derived from the French term “mettre à part”, literally translated to “separating, setting apart,” and this is what Israel has been doing.
Having said all this, Hamas' raison d'être has absolutely nothing to do with oppression. They started to make sure the peace process is sabotaged. We can have the chicken and egg argument here, but the Palestinian Authority knows about Hamas first hand, and fought brutal battles against them.
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
Every major advancement in human history was preceded by turmoil . Can’t wait to see what the next decade holds . It’s gunna be a great show !
LeopoldBloom · M
Agreed 100%. We're lucky to have Biden in the White House right now instead of Orangeanus.
GrinNude · 61-69, C
Referring to Isreal as a democracy is a bit of a stretch as it moves to becoming even more of an apartheid state.
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GrinNude · 61-69, C
@LeopoldBloom
This is apartheid.
Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.
Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
WHAT IS APARTHEID?
Apartheid is a violation of public international law, a grave violation of internationally protected human rights, and a crime against humanity under international criminal law.
The term “apartheid” was originally used to refer to a political system in South Africa which explicitly enforced racial segregation, and the domination and oppression of one racial group by another. It has since been adopted by the international community to condemn and criminalize such systems and practices wherever they occur in the world.
The crime against humanity of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention, the Rome Statute and customary international law is committed when any inhuman or inhumane act (essentially a serious human rights violation) is perpetrated in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another, with the intention to maintain that system.
Apartheid can best be understood as a system of prolonged and cruel discriminatory treatment.
This is apartheid.
Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law.
Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
WHAT IS APARTHEID?
Apartheid is a violation of public international law, a grave violation of internationally protected human rights, and a crime against humanity under international criminal law.
The term “apartheid” was originally used to refer to a political system in South Africa which explicitly enforced racial segregation, and the domination and oppression of one racial group by another. It has since been adopted by the international community to condemn and criminalize such systems and practices wherever they occur in the world.
The crime against humanity of apartheid under the Apartheid Convention, the Rome Statute and customary international law is committed when any inhuman or inhumane act (essentially a serious human rights violation) is perpetrated in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another, with the intention to maintain that system.
Apartheid can best be understood as a system of prolonged and cruel discriminatory treatment.
Northwest · M
@GrinNude [quote]I in my opinion, you can't indefinitely occupy the land of millions of people that have no civil rights and still call yourself a democracy. Just saying.[/quote]
We are somewhat splitting hairs. The USA, Britain, France, and others, indefinitely occupied countries, and were still democracies, within their own countries.
To the rest of the world, and even to the Israeli left leaning governments, and current Israeli center and left of center press, the West Bank is still referred to as occupied territories. It makes settlers existence illegal.
Trump tries to legitimize that with the deals he had his con-in-law do.
Some will try to define Apartheid as something that only applied to South Africa, but that's also splitting hairs. It is what it is, and Israel practices it, and it doesn't change that fact if other countries engage in it. It's just as bad.
We are somewhat splitting hairs. The USA, Britain, France, and others, indefinitely occupied countries, and were still democracies, within their own countries.
To the rest of the world, and even to the Israeli left leaning governments, and current Israeli center and left of center press, the West Bank is still referred to as occupied territories. It makes settlers existence illegal.
Trump tries to legitimize that with the deals he had his con-in-law do.
Some will try to define Apartheid as something that only applied to South Africa, but that's also splitting hairs. It is what it is, and Israel practices it, and it doesn't change that fact if other countries engage in it. It's just as bad.
LeopoldBloom · M
@GrinNude They had to change the definition of apartheid to apply it to Israel, as the official definition is of one race oppressing a different race. Since Israelis and Palestinians are the same race, it's not "apartheid" unless you qualify it as "ethnic apartheid." But if you do that, you'd have to include China's oppression of the Uyghurs as well as others.
The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who as I've stated earlier, were ethnically cleansed from their communities in MENA after Israel was created. They appear Arab and even they and the Palestinians can't always tell each other apart.
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The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who as I've stated earlier, were ethnically cleansed from their communities in MENA after Israel was created. They appear Arab and even they and the Palestinians can't always tell each other apart.

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Northwest · M
@jshm2 We, of course, have a Cold War legacy of interfering in other countries' elections and affairs.
This should have died with the end of the Cold War.
In fact, our initial efforts, since the end of the Cold War, were focused on achieving a 2-state solution to the war in the Middle East If you're not up to speed on it, you should look up what Bill Clinton attempted to do. And I don't mean simply reading a couple of lines on Wikipedia. Try looking up The Oslo accords and the road from Olso, up through the end of the Clinton second term.
The Clinton administration's time in office was marked with an abandonment of our cold war strategy of regime-change.
Then we fucked up bigly, and Bush invaded multiple countries, leading to the creation of ISIS and Hamas and the destabilization of the entire world. We were now back in the regime-change business.
Obama's administration tried to get us out of regime change. Here's a documentary worth watching:
[media=https://youtu.be/7W-xxpXzAC0]
In the meanwhile, Putin never let go of his plan to dominate the world, not because we want to occupy Russia, but because he does not want all that Western influence, namely LGBT, and democracy stuff. Which is his people's business, until he decided to invade other countries (yes, we invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, but we're out of that business now).
You could say Hamas is an outgrowth of Israeli repression and apartheid practices, but Hamas does not have the best interest of the Palestinian people in mind, it is a terrorist Islamist organization.
We can insist on a circle-jerk circular references, going all the way back to Adam and Eve, or focus on trying to figure out a real solution, post Hamas war. I would rather stick with the latter, because the alternative is a circle jerk.
This should have died with the end of the Cold War.
In fact, our initial efforts, since the end of the Cold War, were focused on achieving a 2-state solution to the war in the Middle East If you're not up to speed on it, you should look up what Bill Clinton attempted to do. And I don't mean simply reading a couple of lines on Wikipedia. Try looking up The Oslo accords and the road from Olso, up through the end of the Clinton second term.
The Clinton administration's time in office was marked with an abandonment of our cold war strategy of regime-change.
Then we fucked up bigly, and Bush invaded multiple countries, leading to the creation of ISIS and Hamas and the destabilization of the entire world. We were now back in the regime-change business.
Obama's administration tried to get us out of regime change. Here's a documentary worth watching:
[media=https://youtu.be/7W-xxpXzAC0]
In the meanwhile, Putin never let go of his plan to dominate the world, not because we want to occupy Russia, but because he does not want all that Western influence, namely LGBT, and democracy stuff. Which is his people's business, until he decided to invade other countries (yes, we invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, but we're out of that business now).
You could say Hamas is an outgrowth of Israeli repression and apartheid practices, but Hamas does not have the best interest of the Palestinian people in mind, it is a terrorist Islamist organization.
We can insist on a circle-jerk circular references, going all the way back to Adam and Eve, or focus on trying to figure out a real solution, post Hamas war. I would rather stick with the latter, because the alternative is a circle jerk.
LeopoldBloom · M
@jshm2 More right wing BS. Nobody forced Putin or Hamas to instigate these wars. If you think violence is a legitimate response to oppression, then you must have supported the looters over the 2020 summer.
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