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Dan Abrams says the problem is not that Israel has killed so many civilians in Gaza -- it's that Israel is retaliating at all.

[media=https://youtu.be/ys1Em_XxnxY]

[quote]I predicted in the days after the attacks that no matter what Israel’s response was, it would come under attack by the very people who are attacking Israel now. So we really need to stop pretending that the real issue is the specifics of Israel’s response or how they’re doing it. In reality, the problem is that Israel responded at all, and that’s what too few were discussing.

You see, it’s crystal clear now that Israel is being held to a different standard than any other country in the world. Israel apparently is only allowed to respond if they can do so without any real civilian casualties. And of course, that’s literally impossible when Hamas is using civilians as shields, when they’re firing rockets from civilian areas, when they’re hiding and storing weapons in residential buildings, when they have command centers in hospitals.

So the practical options are basically don’t retaliate, don’t try to dismantle Hamas or many civilians are going to die. And because, of course, Israel has responded. Many are now rewarding Hamas for the situation they created by committing the most repugnant crimes imaginable. Of course, they knew the response would come. They counted on the international aid groups, European and Arab nations, liberal groups condemning Israel. It worked. They’ve all fallen for it.

Hamas is saying more than 22,000 had been killed as of today. Now, in many cases, they’re literally making the numbers up. They’ll guess how many may have died in an attack on a building. But more importantly, even they admit that they lumped together civilian deaths with terrorists.

And here’s the thing. The same people who accept these casualty numbers as gospel and lump civilians and terrorists together and say 22,000 have been killed, are the same people demanding that Israel better separate terrorists from civilians? But of course, the reason it’s so difficult to do it and to assess the numbers is because Hamas makes sure to keep it that way. They want everyone to view the terrorists and the civilians together, both as targets and in casualty counts. They’re grand manipulators.

The most significant reality is that Israel does not benefit by the death of civilians. If they did, they would not warn civilians where to go to avoid the next bombing. They would flatten neighborhoods instead of buildings or going door to door, which is very perilous for Israeli soldiers. You can argue that the IDF needs to try to be even more careful about civilians. I’ve made the same point in certain contexts, and you could made the same argument, by the way, about the U.S. response in Afghanistan. But in the end, this is a war. It’s a war created by Hamas. And if civilians die in war, most importantly, this is exactly how Hamas wants it. Civilian deaths help their cause, and any deaths in Gaza seem to hurt Israelis. The evidence of that is now clear in how so many around the world have responded. They won’t admit it, but they’re letting Hamas win.

Israel’s response by any other nation would be considered perilous, but righteous. Because it’s Israel, they’re immediately the aggressors, they’re the bad guys and have been from the moment of the attack on them. And that isn’t just anti-Semitism, as some Jews claim. Yes, there’s definitely anti-Semitism around the world. It’s a factor. But a lot of it here in the United States is just ignorance and a complete unwillingness or inability to answer the question: “What else do you think Israel should have done? What would you do if this happened to your country, to your citizens?”

So, look, let’s criticize the IDF if and when they deserve it. But big picture, please spare me the self-righteous condemnation of Israel more broadly by claiming this is about the number of civilians who have died. Of course, it isn’t.

The same people on MSNBC and in the Arab world who blamed Israel as soon as the attack occurred would be blaming Israel today no matter what the death count was. Let me be clear. Civilian deaths must matter, a lot. And no one knows that better than Hamas. And that’s why they’re trying to guarantee as many as they possibly can. The rest of us, particularly those of us in the media, shouldn’t be falling for that ruse.[/quote]
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
My problem with the whole situation there is not the current injustices on both sides.

My problem with the same whole situation started in 1948! All the injustices should have been known would happen! In 1948 on both sides!

Israel should never have existed after Rome threw them out nearly 2,000 years ago.

What would you say if the Inca' empire was reinstated?

It wasn't even 1,000 years ago!

So what to do now?

Israel wants that territory? Let them defend it by themselves!

No helping either side! Cut off the aid ALL AROUND! Put a embargo over the whole region if we must.

Sounds cruel? Think what the Inca empire would have done if they were reinstated!

You have two totally fanatical mortal enemies there, that never should have been put together in the first place!
@DeWayfarer A pox on both their houses!
@DeWayfarer Comparing the establishment of the modern state of Israel to the hypothetical recreation of the Inca civilization is not entirely accurate historically.

First and foremost, the Jewish presence in the land of Israel dates back thousands of years. Historical and archaeological evidence attests to the continuous Jewish presence in the region, including the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, which existed long before the Inca civilization emerged in South America. In contrast, the Incas rose to prominence in the Andean region of South America much later, around the 13th century AD.

Secondly, the Jewish people have maintained a connection to the land of Israel throughout their history, despite periods of exile and dispersion. The concept of Zion, or the desire to return to the ancestral homeland, has been a central tenet of Jewish identity for millennia. In contrast, the Incas did not have a similar historical or cultural connection to a specific homeland in the same way that the Jewish people did to Israel.

Thirdly, the establishment of the modern state of Israel was not simply an attempt to recreate an ancient civilization, but rather a response to the unique historical circumstances of the 20th century. Following centuries of persecution, culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust, the Jewish people sought a homeland where they could live in safety and security. The United Nations' decision to partition Palestine and the subsequent recognition of Israel's legitimacy were responses to these historical realities, as well as to the aspirations of the Jewish people for self-determination.

In contrast, the hypothetical recreation of the Inca civilization would not be driven by similar historical traumas or contemporary geopolitical considerations. While indigenous peoples in South America have fought for recognition of their rights and cultural heritage, their struggles are distinct from the Jewish experience in the Middle East.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@flipper1966 know look up the earliest recorded settlement of Jericho! It goes back to the [i]Neolithic times[/i]!

I understated the time by 3,000 years

https://worldhistoryedu.com/the-ancient-city-of-jericho-history-and-major-facts/
graphite · 61-69, M
Hamas is using civilians as human shields to dupe as many people as possible into blaming Israel for the catastrophe started by Hamas itself.
Nobody is calling for the surrender of HAMAS, that's a problem
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trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 history typically remembers only one narrative at a time.
@trollslayer Focusing solely on one narrative can turn history into propaganda or polemic. When history is presented through a single lens, you run the risk of promoting a particular agenda, ideology, or viewpoint, it can distort the truth and manipulate facts to serve a specific purpose. Israel does that all the time. Zionist history isn't history at all. IT'S PROPAGANDA!!
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 By that standard, I would make the claim that much of the US history I was taught was propaganda as well. I do see things changing, though. Example. A valid perspective on USA's treatment of Native Americans is genocide. Yet, that is certainly not the way it was presented to me, and I would expect the strong majority of Americans to strongly reject that valid perspective.

Israeli citizens are also fed only one perspective and tend to condemn alternative perspectives as "antisemitism", no matter what the source or how much evidence there is to back them up.

 
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