If Hamas conducted an October 7-style terror attack in Egypt, how would the Government of Egypt respond? With kid gloves?
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
trollslayer · 46-50, M
A valid question. Probably could never happen due to geography and social dynamics, but nonetheless, perhaps compare USA's 9-11 response.
Taking out al-Qaeda was a given. Toppling the Taliban government in Afghanistan was inevitable given al-Qaeda's location. Taking out Saddam Hussein seems like angry retaliation and not related to 9-11, even though the US administration claimed it was. The US was responsible for many civilian deaths, either directly, or indirectly by destabilizing the regions. The end result of 20 years' fighting? = Taliban back in control of Afghanistan, and terror groups now having free reign in parts of Iraq.
That said, I would expect Egypt's response to an Oct7th attack to be the same as Israel. But even though the response may be the same does not automatically make it "right". I am a US citizen and was very upset at our 9-11 response towards Iraq. Yeah, Saddam was bad, but I knew we would make the problem worse and not better. I feel the same about Gaza. I expect Israel to respond and respond harshly, as they have a right to do. And while Israeli leaders have made some very inciteful comments, I do not constitute what has happened on the ground (so far) as genocide, or really anything close (the ~1948 war makes a much better argument for genocide claims, but that is another topic). The rate of civilian casualties is very excessive compared to recent wars, especially from an army that self-proclaims itself "the most moral army in the world."
And I am 100% certain that Israel is making their problem worse - much, much worse.
Taking out al-Qaeda was a given. Toppling the Taliban government in Afghanistan was inevitable given al-Qaeda's location. Taking out Saddam Hussein seems like angry retaliation and not related to 9-11, even though the US administration claimed it was. The US was responsible for many civilian deaths, either directly, or indirectly by destabilizing the regions. The end result of 20 years' fighting? = Taliban back in control of Afghanistan, and terror groups now having free reign in parts of Iraq.
That said, I would expect Egypt's response to an Oct7th attack to be the same as Israel. But even though the response may be the same does not automatically make it "right". I am a US citizen and was very upset at our 9-11 response towards Iraq. Yeah, Saddam was bad, but I knew we would make the problem worse and not better. I feel the same about Gaza. I expect Israel to respond and respond harshly, as they have a right to do. And while Israeli leaders have made some very inciteful comments, I do not constitute what has happened on the ground (so far) as genocide, or really anything close (the ~1948 war makes a much better argument for genocide claims, but that is another topic). The rate of civilian casualties is very excessive compared to recent wars, especially from an army that self-proclaims itself "the most moral army in the world."
And I am 100% certain that Israel is making their problem worse - much, much worse.
flipper1966 · M
@trollslayer
From another angle, as far as condemnation of Israel is concerned, should Israel be held to a higher standard than another country, such as Egypt?
That said, I would expect Egypt's response to an Oct7th attack to be the same as Israel. But even though the response may be the same does not automatically make it "right".
From another angle, as far as condemnation of Israel is concerned, should Israel be held to a higher standard than another country, such as Egypt?
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 Another valid question. Legally = absolutely not. But, there is an important "public opinion" component. As an American, I hold my country to a higher standard than those we are fighting. When it comes to Israel - somewhat the same - we supply them weapons and I expect them to be used properly. I also want Israel to "appear" to be of a higher standard than other countries, because they are technically a democracy, and I would have a higher expectation from a Democracy than someone like China because I believe in and cheer for democracy. But also Israel smugly touts itself as morally superior (which is a slight to other countries), and people or countries who boast such a claim naturally want those people or countries to demonstrate that or STFU. It's like the GOP in the USA claiming to be the party of "family values". Once they make that claim it's natural for Democrats to point out every time the GOP does not fit into its own self-proclaimed category.
flipper1966 · M
@trollslayer Incidentally, here's a portion of today's ICJ presentation by Israel. The lawyer summarized factual distortions and outright falsehoods in South Africa's genocide application. The case is not necessarily a slam dunk for South Africa.
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmFay433PsA]
[media=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmFay433PsA]
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 No, it is definitely not a slam dunk. But I doubt the court will quickly dismiss it. My guess is that they will have "strong words" regarding the statements made by Israeli ministers, define what is legal and not legal, and what constitutes war crimes. But they will not agree with "genocide."
But I don't think that is SA's goal. They win just by drawing attention to it. I was expecting SA just to talk about civilian casualties being avoidable, and then a big history of Palestinian oppression. Those things we know. But the statements they cited are probably alarming to those who aren't as invested. I don't think their goal was to actually win - but just bring it to the global forefront.
But I don't think that is SA's goal. They win just by drawing attention to it. I was expecting SA just to talk about civilian casualties being avoidable, and then a big history of Palestinian oppression. Those things we know. But the statements they cited are probably alarming to those who aren't as invested. I don't think their goal was to actually win - but just bring it to the global forefront.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 Another issue I see with Israel's defense - considering they have destroyed most of the power and telecom has been destroyed by IDF, and people are scared to go outside for fear of being shot, I don't think text alerts and leaflets do much good.
flipper1966 · M
@trollslayer A number people point that out. Text alerts and leaflets don't help the Palestinians. But Israel's questionably useful warnings don't really relate to intent to commit genocide, do they? Even though ineffective, the useless warnings don't tend to prove that Israel has the intent to commit genocide. This issue seems, rather, to relate to indiscriminate bombing of civilians, which would be a different war crime. But, again, this issue doesn't seem to relate to the intent to commit genocide.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@flipper1966 agreed.