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Seems IDF is now again denying shooting women at a catholic church.

Other than Catholic sources and IDF, there has been no other information about this. I assume that is because this is in an area where outside journalist can't go. I really, really don't want to believe that IDF is responsible here, but -

Having the Pope call IDF out is a big deal. Catholics are pretty outraged by this right now. You would think that IDF would want to be quick to do a ground investigation and offer assistance to parishioners over the potential implications of this. The people in the church say there are no Hamas there - so why not go to the church and assist and investigate? And if you do not control the area, why is the church saying otherwise? I see no motivation for them to lie. Every other time IDF has been accused of causing damage, they were quick to provide proof that they weren't responsible, showing us videos, guns hiding under mattresses, etc. Why do they not seem to care here? If they really cared about civilians as they claim, wouldn't they want to be helping/protecting those asking for help?

If this was done by a Hamas shooter, their motivation would be to make IDF look like terrorists and I think that is a definite possibility considering other tactics they use. But if they intentionally did this to paint IDF as terrorists, you would think that they would be all over the media saying "See! See! - Christians look how bad IDF is!" This does seem to be their MO about everything else they claim IDF did, yet I have not heard anything from them on this I hear them talking about killing doctors, sick people, children, so why wouldn't they be jumping all over this? You would think that IDF would be going out of their way to prove it, given the Pope's comments and how that could have a huge impact on international support.

It may be premature to call BS on IDF here, but they do have the capability of investigating, and yet have not done so, have not gone to the church to find out for themselves, have not offered assistance to parishioners. Instead the response feels "war is bad, our fighters are under pressure, sucks that you are there."

I would think a better response would be: "I feel sadness and regret that this happened. We are determined to investigate and find out what happened here, and if it turns out the accusations are true, we will hold those responsible accountable."

My gut is telling me there was intense street fighting in the area, and with the trauma of fighting one or more IDF fighters started seeing anyone not wearing an IDF uniform is an enemy and shooting at them. This seems to be what happened with the hostages they shot, so it makes sense here. But if that is what happened, the coverup and lack of concern is far worse than the act itself.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
The more I think about it, the more I feel convinced IDF is full of shit here, and that is what I am going to believe until someone goes to this church and proves otherwise. My logic:

1) Multiple people at the church reported this incident, and they all claimed IDF was the shooter. They mentioned a tank, Hamas does not have tanks. And if they did not see who was shooting I don't see any reason to make an assumption. And if they did make an assumption, why wouldn't they assume Hamas? Based on this, I think the people at the church truly think that IDF shot at them. Of course, it could be mistaken identity or Hamas disguising themselves as IDF, but I think Hamas would have bigger things to worry about right now.

2) Israel has denied shooting up the church, but they also have not pointed the finger as Hamas. If they had evidence that Hamas was shooting at Christians, don't you think they would be shouting this from the rooftops by now, saying "See! Look! Hamas shoots at Christians, too!" ? The fact that they have not gone to the church to prove that it was Hamas, like they do for every other attack in which IDF is blamed, seems rather suspicious to me. Every other time someone points a finger at them, they are posting photos all over social media of guns in classrooms or hospital beds, secret tunnels, saying "look world, believe us now?!"

3) Israel has shown no empathy toward the Catholic Church. Just denial and excuses, "It's war, shit happens; this is why we wanted everyone to leave." If they truly thought Hamas did it I think they would issue an official statement saying it was a tragic event perpetuated by a ruthless people, and that they stand with the Catholic church and will work to protect the Christians still in Gaza. But we get "Not us. Shit happens".

4) They had to remind their troops to not shoot at folks waiving white flags, because they did exactly that. This is something you should not even have to tell your troops, or even remind them of. That pretty much tells me they are aware that some troops in their ranks are shooting at every moving target not wearing an IDF uniform.

6) IDF has changed their story on this multiple times.

My gut is telling me there are IDF troops that have either become so radicalized or disoriented though this conflict that they now see anyone remaining in Gaza as a potential enemy and have lost all sense of discernment. And one or more of them opened fire on the catholic church. IDF know this and deny while they decide how to approach damage control. The reason they are not saying it was Hamas is because if they do, and later when folks investigate and find out it was IDF after all, it makes then not only look trigger happy, but also liars. Instead they are just denying and hoping nobody can prove otherwise.

The other possibility is the folks at the church are making this whole thing up. Not sure what the motive would be for that.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
> and with the trauma of fighting one or more IDF fighters started seeing anyone not wearing an IDF uniform is an enemy and shooting at them

I mean to be clear, this is amidst reports of refugee tents full of people being run over with bulldozers, civilians being herded into safe spaces which are then bombed, and children being killed by snipers who are very aware of what they are shooting at.

I'm not particularly inclined to provide benefit of the doubt to the IDF here. The killing is indiscriminate.
Sad to say if a former member of congress having family members blown to bits in Gaza got zero response I doubt a few unknown Catholics will get much traction.

It sucks but it is what it is.
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow everyone knows it sucks. America has totally isolated almost everyone else. They're the global committee, alone.
We're all used to the Israeli and US impunity. The alternative was a human rights based world with universal equality. Murka don't play that. Murka wars forever!
Northwest · M
I posted a piece from the NY Times. Today (Monday in Europe), Italy's Foreign Minister made a statement as well.
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Northwest Where did you post this? I would like to read it
If Trump wins in 2024 because of Biden enabling the IDF, centrist Dems need their asses kicked
@Northwest Umm no. I hardly think of him. The only reason he came up is because of your identical behavior.

And again all you have is childish insults.

And now you are just straight up lying. First hand exposure? 😂 And of course you would claim to have special information nobody can verify.


You have proven conclusively you have no idea what you are talking about.

The only one embarrassing themselves is you. I don't need to say anything more. You have done a good enough job making yourself look the fool.
Northwest · M

[quote]Umm no. I hardly think of him.[/quote]

Might be more credible if you did not mention him in every comment.

And now you are just straight up lying. First hand exposure? 😂 And of course you would claim to have special information nobody can verify.


Yes dummy. First hand exposure. As in I spend time in the region on regular basis, a couple of times per year. I talk to people who live there on daily basis. I read the local papers. I watch the local media.

You read whatever the other rebels without a clue tell you.


You have proven conclusively you have no idea what you are talking about


Says you 😂
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