Middle East Conflict
Which side do you support or what's your take on the situation?
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LeopoldBloom · M
It's a little more complicated than just supporting one side or the other. Both sides tend to be defined by their most extremist elements, so "support" is defined as wanting one side to win a complete victory at the other's expense. In reality, the only solution can be a compromise with both sides accepting the permanent presence of the other.
The two-state solution is the one getting all the attention, probably because it has the most support both inside Israel and Palestine, and outside in the world at large. It's also unrealistic as a Palestinian state would consist of two separate enclaves in Gaza and the West Bank, currently governed by groups hostile to each other. It would also be economically unviable for a long time.
Former president Rivlin's proposal of a federation of self-governing cantons, similar to what Switzerland has, may be the best solution, but doesn't have much support right now. It should be clear that any solution will require the cooperation of the surrounding countries, notably Iran.
The situation has been described as a sandwich with three falafel balls - Jewish identity, democracy, and the Occupied Territories. There's only room in the sandwich for two of those - take your pick. I know someone who has worked as an archeologist in a West Bank village for the past 30 years, so she has a view both as an outsider (she's American) and someone very familiar with life there. She says that in a generation or two, because of the birthrate among Haredi Jews, they will be the dominant faction. She expects that the country will become a fundamentalist Jewish theocracy at that point, similar to the Islamic one in Iran or Afghanistan under the Taliban, with a concurrent loss of educated Israelis and Palestinians emigrating to less oppressive countries.
The two-state solution is the one getting all the attention, probably because it has the most support both inside Israel and Palestine, and outside in the world at large. It's also unrealistic as a Palestinian state would consist of two separate enclaves in Gaza and the West Bank, currently governed by groups hostile to each other. It would also be economically unviable for a long time.
Former president Rivlin's proposal of a federation of self-governing cantons, similar to what Switzerland has, may be the best solution, but doesn't have much support right now. It should be clear that any solution will require the cooperation of the surrounding countries, notably Iran.
The situation has been described as a sandwich with three falafel balls - Jewish identity, democracy, and the Occupied Territories. There's only room in the sandwich for two of those - take your pick. I know someone who has worked as an archeologist in a West Bank village for the past 30 years, so she has a view both as an outsider (she's American) and someone very familiar with life there. She says that in a generation or two, because of the birthrate among Haredi Jews, they will be the dominant faction. She expects that the country will become a fundamentalist Jewish theocracy at that point, similar to the Islamic one in Iran or Afghanistan under the Taliban, with a concurrent loss of educated Israelis and Palestinians emigrating to less oppressive countries.
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Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom no, Israel invaded Palestine. Not complicated. Liars complicate.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego The original UN declaration was for separate Jewish and Palestinian areas. As soon as the British withdrew, the surrounding countries attacked Israel with the goal of "driving the Jews into the sea" (their words). Israel to everyone's surprise not only survived, it captured additional land. The same thing was attempted in 1967 which resulted in Israel's control of Gaza and the West Bank, which weren't annexed as the earlier captured areas were. So here we are.
If you think Israel invaded their peaceful neighbors for no reason, you're very ill-informed.
If you think Israel invaded their peaceful neighbors for no reason, you're very ill-informed.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom not for no reason. Colonizers aren't stupid.
We understand you would never stop the genocide! We're watching you guys kill Palestine for good reasons of yours. But it's getting harder for the world to tolerate you. We need options.
We understand you would never stop the genocide! We're watching you guys kill Palestine for good reasons of yours. But it's getting harder for the world to tolerate you. We need options.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego If Israel was a "colony," what imperial power were the settlers from? Or you're saying the West Bank is a "colony?"
You're just using emotional buzzwords. You don't actually have an argument. If your solution is "kill deh jooz," you shouldn't be surprised if they fight back.
You're just using emotional buzzwords. You don't actually have an argument. If your solution is "kill deh jooz," you shouldn't be surprised if they fight back.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom colonialism is taking over because you can, because you justify it not something you'd romanicize. Nobody thinks we can reason with settler colonizers. Whether you have a fake definition of your own or not.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego So basically, you just redefine words to mean what you want them to mean. You like "colonialism" because it's a bad word and applies to bad people.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom no, that's what you did, pretending settler colonialism isn't what it is. Israel and the USA practice settler colonizing. It's a real thing, not what I decided it to be. But you shift around and pretend you may have a unique definition of words whenever you like.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego I'm going by the actual definition of colonialism. You're confusing it with "conquest," a completely different word.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom sorry, no, you're retreating into elementary school myths and I'm using current adult political terms. But I know you would kill to stop the learning - burn some more books, but too late. People accept my terms for adults.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego You're just a tankie repeating the same meaningless buzzwords that people in your circle use without realizing how they sound to others.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom no, settler colonizer Israel is a genocidal occupier of Palestine. No buzz words. Nobody thinks you can coexist with world peace. Everyone knows you would always dominate and ruin society. Nobody thinks you can discuss anything fairly. We're all in awe of the deadliest threat we've ever faced. Say what you say. God help us solve you.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego Those are all buzzwords. You don't have an argument, you just have emotion.
OK, professor, so what's your solution? Or you don't have one and you just like to complain?
OK, professor, so what's your solution? Or you don't have one and you just like to complain?
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom why would I lack solutions? It's settler colonizers who claim war is the only way. Obviously you stop the war and allow local democracy, national democracy and international democracy to function through voting. I am certain it is opposed and called "unrealistic" to expect democracy and that you hope pray and prepare only for war glorious victorious total control of humanity, through US might. So we lost. Nobody can top you.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego When you say "stop the war," does that include both sides, or just Israel? If Hamas offered to disarm the way the Irish Republican Army did, Israel would negotiate with them.
It's not so easy to just say "democracy" and "voting" and expect everything to work out. Who decides what they get to vote on? Does any Palestinian or Jew in the world get to vote, or just the ones living there? Who controls Jerusalem?
I support former president Rivlin's proposal of a federation of self-governing cantons. You probably oppose that just because he suggested it, even though it comes close to your idea of local democracy.
It's not so easy to just say "democracy" and "voting" and expect everything to work out. Who decides what they get to vote on? Does any Palestinian or Jew in the world get to vote, or just the ones living there? Who controls Jerusalem?
I support former president Rivlin's proposal of a federation of self-governing cantons. You probably oppose that just because he suggested it, even though it comes close to your idea of local democracy.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom of course stopping a war includes both sides.
Democracy means universal suffrage, one person one vote, public government funded campaigns and elections, run offs and or ranked choice voting, exit polls. It's only impossible or too hard when you don't like democracy.
Democracy means universal suffrage, one person one vote, public government funded campaigns and elections, run offs and or ranked choice voting, exit polls. It's only impossible or too hard when you don't like democracy.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego Who gets to vote and who decides what they vote on? Israel pulled every Jew out of Gaza and let the people there decide, and they voted in Hamas.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom democracy failed. Genocide was always your only option. You cannot negotiate with Palestinians. You never keep deals with Palestinians. It's okay - it's definitely a final solution and nobody expected anything different from Israel or Americans. See indian removal non crimes, non wrong in USA history! It's famous - genocide is okay, normal and always happens when you really are settler colonizers
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego First, I don't live in Israel, so if "you" means me personally, that would be incorrect. If you're using the second person in the general sense (a man describing a habitual activity might say "you get off work, then you stop at Joe's Bar" without meaning that the other person is doing it), that might apply.
There have been attempts to negotiate but the two sides are too far apart. It's not equivalent to the Native American genocide, as there was always a Jewish presence in that area and there never was a Palestinian state. Many Palestinians are also descended from immigrants. So romanticizing it by comparing Israeli Jews to Europeans and Palestinians to Native Americans is inaccurate.
Just curious, are you indigenous to wherever you live?
There have been attempts to negotiate but the two sides are too far apart. It's not equivalent to the Native American genocide, as there was always a Jewish presence in that area and there never was a Palestinian state. Many Palestinians are also descended from immigrants. So romanticizing it by comparing Israeli Jews to Europeans and Palestinians to Native Americans is inaccurate.
Just curious, are you indigenous to wherever you live?
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom invaders in a genocidal takeover of Palestine. Americans enforcing the genocide so everyone understands America.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego The Palestinians would also be genocidal. The US supports one side and various Arab and Iranian networks support the other.
Still waiting to hear what land your ancestors invaded so you could live wherever you are now.
Still waiting to hear what land your ancestors invaded so you could live wherever you are now.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom the Indians too? Did they deserve it? Nobody expected peace with USA and Israel still on our map.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego The Native Americans did not "deserve it." They were living in their own country when outsiders came in. The same cannot be said for Israel/Palestine which had always had a native Jewish presence, and had been under foreign domination already for centuries. The first opportunity the Palestinians had for their own country was the 1947 UN partition plan.
Mexico was also violently established by outsiders who displaced the original Native people. Why don't you include Mexico on your list of evil countries? Why just USA and Israel?
Mexico was also violently established by outsiders who displaced the original Native people. Why don't you include Mexico on your list of evil countries? Why just USA and Israel?
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom Palestinian people were indeed displaced. I'm not going to forget the ones I know that left that night in a very dangerous way.
Never again. That includes everyone. No Palestinian exception for genocide.
Never again. That includes everyone. No Palestinian exception for genocide.
LeopoldBloom · M
@Roundandroundwego Jewish Israelis were also displaced.
If the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries had accepted the partition, no one would have been displaced and there would be a Palestinian state today, and Israel would be much smaller than it is. Just because you want to make believe that the only aggressors were the Israelis doesn't make it a fact.
Also, calling the situation "genocide" is just misusing the word for emotional reasons, like the anti-abortion people who call legal abortion "baby murder." If you don't have a real argument, buzzwords make up for that.
Still waiting to hear which indigenous people were murdered so you could live where you are now.
If the Palestinians and the surrounding Arab countries had accepted the partition, no one would have been displaced and there would be a Palestinian state today, and Israel would be much smaller than it is. Just because you want to make believe that the only aggressors were the Israelis doesn't make it a fact.
Also, calling the situation "genocide" is just misusing the word for emotional reasons, like the anti-abortion people who call legal abortion "baby murder." If you don't have a real argument, buzzwords make up for that.
Still waiting to hear which indigenous people were murdered so you could live where you are now.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@LeopoldBloom so you're not an American like me? Obviously my terms are American. So, you're new to the English we use here in the USA? Or just a prick?
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