People remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but there was a conventional attack in Tokyo that killed about the same.

The Bombing of Tokyo was a series of firebombing air raids by the United States during World War II. Operation Meetinghouse, which was conducted on the night of 9–10 March 1945, is the single most destructive bombing raid in human history. Of central Tokyo, 16 square miles were destroyed, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.

I wonder about this -- not sure where I come down on the issue, especially given Japan's atrocities, particularly in China and the Philippines. The logic was the war must stop as soon as possible.

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anythingoes477 · M

The story that the "BOMB" ended the war is a lie. In fact what ended the war with Japan was Russia. When Hitler's war was defeated the Russians...allies with the United States....Russian troops didn't just go home. As our allies they marched back across Russia from Europe and fully intended to attack Japan from the west side. By the time the "bomb" was dropped Japan had just a few cities left standing anyway. The Japanese were thoroughly beaten and as Hirohito said later "Nagasaki and Hiroshima was just two more bombed towns". What the Japanese saw as a threat was the Russians. Not us. The Russians were already entering the real estate we call N. Korea...just a short distance away from Japanese soil when the bombs were dropped. Japan feared Russia far more than they feared us. The U.S. was already making noises in diplomatic channels about what a Japanese surrender would be like...the Emperor staying in place, etc. The Japanese much preferred that kind of surrender over Russian defeat, occupation...and annexation....forever. Japan decided to surrender when it did to end the war so Russia would stop in its tracks and go home. The BOMB didn't do anything that 2,000,000 other bombs hadn't already done to end the war. Japan took the preferred way out of permanent domination and destruction of their society...they surrendered to us rather than let Russia take one step inside of their borders. Truman took credit........but history tells the real story.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@anythingoes477 My take away is that it was a confluence of both events. According to historian Sadao Asada 'the "twin shocks"—the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and the Soviet entry—had immediate profound effects on Prime Minister Kantarō Suzuki and Foreign Minister Shigenori Tōgō, who concurred that the government must end the war at once.'

helenS · 36-40, F

@anythingoes477 Thank you for these very reasonable and sober explanations. 🌷

anythingoes477 · M

@Human1000 Depends on who wrote the history you read. Japanese history says Russia was the fear and the bomb was simply an opportunity to end the war by surrendering to America. Two birds...one stone. America dropped the bomb......and Russia needed to be stopped in it's tracks so they surrendered to us...instead of waiting 3 weeks max to surrender to the Russians.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@anythingoes477 I think we would need to get a truthful statement from Hirohito to know definitely (he does mention "science" in some communication, a reference to the bombs) but there are arguments for your side. It's also hard to say what Japan would do if there hadn't been the Soviet invasion. In my reading I tend to think that it was the bombs more because they were on home soil and removed the need for the US to invade Japan. Nagasaki established it was not a one time thing.

Also, the fear of famine and the fact that it doesn't appear the Soviet Union had designs on Japan. They couldn't really do an amphibious landing. And why would they need to, of course.

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@anythingoes477 Complete horseshit. Russia didn't enter the war against Japan until the action in the Pacific was over. There was a lull in combat after Nagasaki.

Obviously you don't know what happened.

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@helenS He's wrong

helenS · 36-40, F

@HoraceGreenley Thank you – I really have no idea what is and isn't wrong, in this context. 🌷

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@helenS You're welcome. I've told the story before. Maybe when I'm on my PC I'll type it out.

helenS · 36-40, F

@HoraceGreenley Would be very much appreciated.

Human1000 · 51-55, M

@HoraceGreenley @helenS The Japanese surrender has many facets. They were getting to the point of national suicide in lieu of surrender. The major cities had already been firebombed. After Okinawa there were few planes, ships, fuel. There was growing concern about famine and even an uprising.

This state of affairs on the mainland was caused by the Americans. Japan's war in China had sapped massive resources (their late Burma/India campaign too), but it was the Americans who brought Japan to its knees. The Soviet invasion alone would only have caused Japan to leave the mainland. It is highly unlikely the Soviets would have invaded mainland Japan, but the Americans had plans to do so. The Americans had just taken Okinawa, lest we forget.

This is why you can't just say it was the Soviet invasion that caused the surrender.

Most Americans probably don't know about the Soviet invasion, and it surely had an impact. I just don't think you can isolate one factor. "Well, our mainland is destroyed, and we don't know how many atomic bombs America has left, but it's China we care more about, let's surrender." Doesn't seem very likely.

anythingoes477 · M

@HoraceGreenley Russia didn't enter Japan at all. Especially after the Pacific War was over. Am I to imagine that when WWII ended and Japan signed the Armistice on the USS Missouri that Russia kept on fighting...ignoring the war was over and then they invaded Japan...as you say??? You were right about one thing you said.....the horseshit part......on your take on history. This is what happened.....

"Moscow subsequently declared war on Tokyo on August 8, 1945, two days after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and one day before the second bomb fell on Nagasaki (though Western historiography has long emphasized the role of the nuclear attacks in compelling Japan’s surrender, newly available Japanese documents emphasize the importance of the Soviet declaration of war in forcing Tokyo’s hand)."

"A massive invasion of Manchuria began the day after the Soviet declaration of war. Soviet forces also conducted amphibious landings along Japan’s colonial periphery: Japan’s Northern Territories, on Sakhalin Island, and in the northern part of the Korean Peninsula."

NOTE----Invasion into MANCHURIA.........and two islands to the north of Japan in the northern part of the KOREAN PENNESULA. Russia never set foot on Japanese mainland soil.

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@anythingoes477 I never said anything to the effect of the Soviets invading the Japanese home islands. It's a mystery to me how you came to this conclusion.

But you should be comfortable with mystery as reading compression and history are a mystery to you as well.

anythingoes477 · M

@HoraceGreenley Tired of you. Boring.

HoraceGreenley · 56-60, M

@anythingoes477 Took the words right out of my mouth.

You didn't need to say it. You could have just gone away because frankly my dear I don't give a damn.