Struggles & Identity

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I like men, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Earlier I posted It's a man's world. And, it is.

I'll leave religion out of it though, and I hope you can too if you wish to comment.

In the UK, it's not even been 100 years for women to be allowed to vote.

In the USA, only 60% of women are illegible to have 12 weeks UNPAID maternity leave.

I'm just going to leave these facts here.

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Northwest · M

In Washington State, people can take a 12 weeks per year, PAID medical or family leave. The tech industry in the state, offers additional perks: Microsoft for instance, gives 12 weeks of fully paid paternal leave, and 20 weeks fully paid maternal leave for mothers.

Generally speaking though, this remains a man's world.

Sharon · F

@Northwest

Generally speaking though, this remains a man's world.

What concessions do men rececive that women don't? What are men permitted to do that women aren't?

Northwest · M

@Sharon

What concessions do men rececive that women don't? What are men permitted to do that women aren't?

This is a Western-centric view of the world. The majority of the planet does not run that way.

As for the Western world, equality is theoretical, but in practical terms, boardrooms remains largely closed off to women.

Sharon · F

@Northwest

As for the Western world, equality is theoretical, but in practical terms, boardrooms remains largely closed off to women.

Women have at least the same right to be elected to boards of directors. In some places they have more right because the company is required to have a certain percentage of women on the board. I'm not aware of any rule requiring companies to have a minimum percentage of men on the board.

So, again, what are men permitted to do that women aren't? I want to know what I'm missing out on.

Northwest · M

@Sharon

I believe you did not read the word "theoretical" in my reply. I am part of corporate America, and it did not work how it's supposed to theoretically work.

And, one more time, you're ignoring the fact that the West is not the entire world.

Sharon · F

@Northwest

I believe you did not read the word "theoretical" in my reply.

I saw it but it's irrelevant. I am part of corporate UK and it works as I said here. I am not aware of any rights men have that women do not and, judging from the way you're avoiding answering that question, you're not aware of any either.

I know the west is not the entire world but, overall, women are not significantly worse off. In places where they appear to be badly off, we usually find men are in a worse position still. Tell me, if you can, where in the world are women treated significally worse than men?

Northwest · M

@Sharon

I saw it but it's irrelevant.

No it's not.

I am part of corporate UK and it works as I said here. I am not aware of any rights men have that women do not

In theory, that's why the word "theoretical" IS relevant.

and, judging from the way you're avoiding answering that question, you're not aware of any either.

Don't make any assumptions on my behalf. In the tech industry, 10% of the top level executive positions are held by women, and those are mostly in NON-technical jobs, like human resources or legal.

While "theoretically" there are no obstacles in the Western world, two people go to school together, she gets much better grades than he does, they both get their PhDs in Computer Science at the same school, except she aces it, he squeaks by. They get married, start working, they decide to have a family, fast forward, she has not been working for 9 years while raising the kids, they get divorced. He's now making 3X as much as she does, and he thinks the money is HIS and she has to re-establish herself.

This scenario is NOT theoretical. Sure, you can say that these are choices people make, but this is reality and why equality is not a matter of laws and regulations that make it "theoretical" for men and women to be equal. It runs a lot deeper.

I know the west is not the entire world but, overall, women are not significantly worse off. In places where they appear to be badly off, we usually find men are in a worse position still. Tell me, if you can, where in the world are women treated significally worse than men?

Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Dubai
Qatar
Syria
Iraq
Iran
Egypt
Sudan
South Sudan
Ethiopia
The entire continent of Africa
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Turkey
Russia
Eastern Europe
India

Should I continue?

Sharon · F

@Northwest

In theory, that's why the word "theoretical" IS relevant.

It is the practice that's relevant, not the theory. So, once again, in practice what are men permitted to do that women aren't?

10% of the top level executive positions are held by women,

So, maybe women in general don't want the responsibility that goes with those positions. In the UK, one of the political parties put a lot of effort into geting more women in Parliament. Most of them dropped out after finding it wasn't the easy ride they'd been led to expect.

In the US in 2018, 92% of workplace fatalities were of men.

Even with the significant strides made to reduce workplace fatalities, 5,250 US workers died in 2018 because of occupational injuries, and 92% of the workers who died were men. The gender disparity in workplace fatalities has remained steady for the past 30 years.

(https://www.publichealthpost.org/databyte/men-hard-at-work/)

HSE Fatal Accident Statistics 2018/19 – an increase in workplace fatalities for 2018/19

Published 9 July 2019...

95% (139) of all worker fatalities in 2018/19 were male...

(https://www.dacbeachcroft.com/en/gb/articles/2019/july/hse-fatal-accident-statistics-201819-an-increase-in-workplace-fatalities-for-201819/)

she gets much better grades than he does, they both get their PhDs in Computer Science at the same school, except she aces it, he squeaks by. They get married, start working, they decide to have a family, fast forward, she has not been working for 9 years while raising the kids,

So why did she, the better qualified, choose to take a career break to raise the children? It would have made more sense for him to do so.

If he had chosen to take a career break to raise the children instead, the situation you describe would be reversed. The diffeence has nothing to do with their sexes, it's all due to their freely made lifestyle choices.

In response to my question "where in the world are women treated significally worse than men?" you simply provided a list of countries. You fail to say how women are treated significanty worse than men so that list is worthless. I could provide a similar list of countries and claim men are treated significantly worse than women in them.

Many countries have compulsory military service only for men so, in that resepect, men are treated worse than women. Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey, all countries you list as being where women are treated significantly worse than men, discriminate against men like that. I suspect many of the others do too but that sample is enough to prove my point. Some countries treat both sexes equally. Sweden reintroduced military conscription in 2017, having abolished it in 2010. In the Swedish system, “men and women are treated equally". As far as I am aware, no country has compulsory national service of any kind (not necessarily military) only for women.

Northwest · M

@Sharon

It is the practice that's relevant, not the theory. So, once again, in practice what are men permitted to do that women aren't?

This is where empirical data comes into play, and I gave you the number: The fact that 10% of the top executive positions, go to men, should tell you why theory does not intersect with reality.

So, then, the real problem is that women are lazy? Got you.

In the US in 2018, 92% of workplace fatalities were of men.

I'm sure you thought this stat is relevant to the argument. It is not.

So why did she, the better qualified, choose to take a career break to raise the children? It would have made more sense for him to do so.

Yes, this is another example of where theory does not intersect with reality. Where, in your world, it's a choice, but in the real world, it's not.

you simply provided a list of countries. You fail to say how women are treated significanty worse than men so that list is worthless.

I gave you a list of these countries, thinking you have a clue of what does on. If you're not aware of how women are discriminated against in these countries, then there's really no point in continuing this conversation.

As to your military service argument, thank you for proving that the bright are in the West only. In addition, that argument is another inequality proof.

Sharon · F

@Northwest

This is where empirical data comes into play,

I gave you some data - 92% of workplace fatalities being of men for example.

then, the real problem is that women are lazy?

Strawman. Don't try to put words in my mouth. The point is that benefits have a cost and those particular women were not willing to meet that cost.

I'm sure you thought this stat is relevant to the argument.

It's highly relevant for the reason I give immediately above. You claim that women aren't treated equally because they don't get an equal share of the benefits. They don't face an equal share of the costs either.

Where, in your world, it's a choice, but in the real world, it's not.

I live in the real world and I can assure you it is a choice here. In fact I know families who have made exactly that choice for that very reason.

If you're not aware of how women are discriminated against in these countries, then there's really no point in continuing this conversation.

No, I not aware of it because it doesn't happen. If you disagree, provide actual, verifiale examples. I've given you clear, verifiable, examples of how men are discriminated against in some of those countries.

thank you for proving that the bright are in the West only.

What is that meant to mean?

In addition, that argument is another inequality proof.

That's right, proof that inequality, like equality, works both ways and men suffer sex discrimination too.

Northwest · M

@Sharon

Strawman. Don't try to put words in my mouth. The point is that benefits have a cost and those particular women were not willing to meet that cost.

Let's try again, your words:

So, maybe women in general don't want the responsibility that goes with those positions.

I gave you some data - 92% of workplace fatalities being of men for example.

And the sun sets in the West. Are we playing a game of who can make the most irrelevant statement?

In your own mind, perhaps, but not in the real world. If you want me to give you examples of how women are discriminated against in Saudi Arabia, then you're not interested in an honest debate. Goodbye.

Sharon · F

@Northwest

Are we playing a game of who can make the most irrelevant statement?

If were are, you're winning.

I've shown how men are discriminated against in certain countries, including countries you appear to think women are discriminated against. However, are unable or unwilling to even say why you believe woemen are discriminated against. In response to my asking you to state your case, all you did was accuse me of not being interested in hiostest debate!

You complain that women are underrepresented in one area of employment but refuse to even consider that could be due to their lifestyle choices. Do you also believe that the fact men are underrepresented in other areas of employment is due to anti-male sexism? Or do you just dismiss it as "irrelevant" or due to their career choices. In the UK we have a Government "Minister for Women". There is no equivalent for men yet the number of sex discrimination cases brought by (and won) by men clearly show they suffer sex discrimenination too.

In those countries where women appear to be discriminated against in some areas, we find men are discriminated against in others. Whether one cancels out the other or one sex suffers more than the other is a matter of debate but you've made it clear you're not interested in that. Run back to your little echo chamber.