Am I an atheist checklist...:

Do you think insects like moths and butterflies that mimic eyes are random? Do you think spiders that mimic ants are random?

Science hasn’t answered this yet.. I often wonder if there’s a correlation between consciousness and dna... why wouldn’t there be? @MerryMilkshake

@GardenSage hahaha no. the mutations are random but they are then pruned by a selection procedure. so the overall development is adapted to the selection procedure, which in this case is the environment of the creature plus sexual selection factors.

this is actually very well understood. and it has been applied to numerous other areas such as computer science or farming.

@MerryMilkshake it’s actually not that well understood... there’s many holes in evolution through natural selection as the only means... science suggests theres other phenomena that takes place... mutations in many cases seem directional And can happen very quickly rather than over eons.

that's a good point. but I still think overall, the parts we don't understand represent a very small portion of the total process

@MerryMilkshake I somehow doubt that... we have no fucking clue what consciousness is and what dynamic roll it plays with dna

@GardenSage yo don't swear at me, yeah?

Grow some skin kid@MerryMilkshake

@MerryMilkshake Mutations aren't random in any case, there are definite biological patterns into how they originally happen. I was quite confused about what this post means. I guess he means to say he doesn't believe that mutations happen without guidance.

But as you said, that's not necessarily since the already checked Natural Selection (sometimes fashioned as "Survival of the fittest") is the very means which by desirable mutations proliferate. It seems, initially, that the list is in wrong order because each item seems to already be included in the above item, but I guess it makes sense from historical perspective.

All of these debates ignore that for a good while now, it's been possible to *read* the genome, so the distribution of mutations and natural selection working on them are not an article of faith. Millions of parents-childs combinations have been genotyped to know that a handful of mutations occur in each generation, guided by biology, not by conscious intelligent design. Signatures of natural selection - the enrichment of certain mutations in population - can also be witnessed, ironically in humans in mutations contributing to less education and intelligence. "Natural selection" doesn't mean "selection of the best" by whatever measure one deems fitting, but literally "selection of those who breed the most".

Is consciousness not biological?@Faust76

@Faust76 Yeah haha that's a funny point about the order he posted the criteria in.

but I don't think he was making an argument for intelligent design. I think he was just making an argument for a scientific process by which the mutations don't occur completely randomly.

@GardenSage the idea that consciousness is biological is part of a discussion about ontological reductionism, and it doesn't have a conclusion as of yet.

you can read a very cool essay by thomas nagel called [u]what is it like to be a bat?[/u] that explores this issue.

It's actually not clear, the post is titled "Am I an atheist checklist", so taken at face value it seems to be an argument that nobody should be an atheist.

Whether consciousness is biological is actually one of the rare things where "the jury" still seems to be out on. I think these seems to be strong indication it is biological, but many others contest this hotly, and unless a conscious artificial brain is constructed (Which raises ethical questions in itself) this question could be regarded as unsettled.

Of course, the question itself counts as sleight of hand, because we're not debating the nature of consciousness, the question seemed to be about whether the consciousness can affect DNA. And my answer was that in millions of genotyped "trials" there hasn't been any evidence of DNA changing except by physical, biological processes. Sure, you can consciously take a mutagen or expose yourself to radiation or whatever and claim that your consciousness is shaping your DNA, but you can't control how, as evidenced by people getting cancer rather than superpowers.

And the order listed was meant to show a closer look at each item in succession. Evolution is a broad term.. it can happen in any number of ways hypothesized.. natural selections are part of the equation, but I wanted to allude that it’s not the only element... dna mutations play a part and many are certainly random, but many mutations that lead to micro and macro-evolutions as well as highly specialized creatures seem to me to be far too lucky for it to be random.... I mean there are insects which look identical to leaves or sticks or even other insects and behave specifically within that ecosystem...

One example I find interesting is the bone on the paw of a panda... I think natural selection and random mutations would be highly coincidental in this case.. yet obviously not impossible.. but highly improbable.

The thing is that the “highly improbable” happens all the damn time! In species all around the globe by the millions

Let’s talk about chromataphores on cephalopods and how with consciousness, a specimen can adapt in seconds to its visual surroundings in the same manner that takes other species generations to replicate.
It’s not the same as genetic evolution, but is in itself a genetic evolution.
Is this not a modern example of how consciousness can correlate to physiological changes? What other similar surprises will mutations conjure up...

And I’m not saying I’ve got the answers.. I’m merely pointing out what we don’t know and that what we don’t know may be more significant than we ever imagined.

Also I’m alluding to consciousness being a clue that life isn’t random.....