This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
MethDozer · M
Forcing teachers to be armed or allowing teachers who are armed to remain so on school property?
Here's the main issue I see with this idea. At some point there is going to be the group of a few bad kids who decide to bum rush the teacher to try and get their gun. When that attempt is made the teacher is going to have no recourse but to fire his/her weapon at them. Then when we have dead students over this what happens next?
Here's the main issue I see with this idea. At some point there is going to be the group of a few bad kids who decide to bum rush the teacher to try and get their gun. When that attempt is made the teacher is going to have no recourse but to fire his/her weapon at them. Then when we have dead students over this what happens next?
Sicarium · 46-50, M
@MethDozer Forcing would be a huge mistake. Allowing and incentivising are the way to go.
In that scenario, the teacher is going to need therapy and that sucks, but if the kids are bum rushing someone for their gun then they're the kids who would commit a shooting and the system worked as intended.
It's not exactly like being bum rushed for your gun is a common occurrence. Think it's a mistake to just assume it'll happen in a school.
Also, what's to stop those same kids from bum rushing a cop on the street or a security guard at the mall or any other person with a weapon?
In that scenario, the teacher is going to need therapy and that sucks, but if the kids are bum rushing someone for their gun then they're the kids who would commit a shooting and the system worked as intended.
It's not exactly like being bum rushed for your gun is a common occurrence. Think it's a mistake to just assume it'll happen in a school.
Also, what's to stop those same kids from bum rushing a cop on the street or a security guard at the mall or any other person with a weapon?
MethDozer · M
@Sicarium Not really. I seen it happen at my HS a few times as a kid. Kids are dumb and most teachers aren't intimidating as a presence. That's the difference between little ol Mrs. Harris with a gun in her drawer and a big pitbull of a man/woman with training and a gun at his belt.
There is cases to draw this scenario from. People are broken into for the sole purpose of stealing their weapons. That's why it's really moronic to advertise you have them in your home with stupid signs or letting them be seen during transport.
There is cases to draw this scenario from. People are broken into for the sole purpose of stealing their weapons. That's why it's really moronic to advertise you have them in your home with stupid signs or letting them be seen during transport.
Sicarium · 46-50, M
@MethDozer Breaking in to steal a gun is completely different from bum rushing someone to take their weapon.
If you saw it happen then it was already happening. It wouldn't be a new occurrence because of a policy change, it was already going on and shouldn't effect the policy change.
If you saw it happen then it was already happening. It wouldn't be a new occurrence because of a policy change, it was already going on and shouldn't effect the policy change.
MethDozer · M
@Sicarium No it's a similar situation. It's trying to take a gun from the owner who theoretically could shoot you for it.
My point exactly, teachers already experience this at times for much less than trying to get a gun. Just because you give a person a gun doesn't make them an effective force. Bring in effective and disciplined forces with guns instead. This idea is like trying to put snow plow on a Honda Accord instead of getting a plow truck.
My point exactly, teachers already experience this at times for much less than trying to get a gun. Just because you give a person a gun doesn't make them an effective force. Bring in effective and disciplined forces with guns instead. This idea is like trying to put snow plow on a Honda Accord instead of getting a plow truck.
Sicarium · 46-50, M
@MethDozer Wait, first off, which is it? Did you see people bum rushing a teacher in school for their gun or not? Because that's what we're talking about. Just trying to clarify what you saw and didn't see.
Second, stealing a gun and bum rushing someone for a gun are entirely different, they're on totally different scales of action and intent. It's the same as stealing a parked car versus car jacking someone. If you assault someone in an attempt to take a gun away from them by force, which is what bum rushing is, then you're doing it with the intent, or at least knowledge that you'll likely have to, shoot someone as soon as you get the weapon.
Third, that's the point of a firearm, to equalize people. You don't have to be physically imposing or threatening or stronger with a firearm. The weapon takes care of that in most cases. That's why we can have female police officers. And in the rare cases where it doesn't get the message across and some kid or kids may bum rush a teacher, then those same kids are the ones who would shoot up the school and I have no problem with them being shot.
Fourth, I haven't seen anyone argue that we should simply pick out teachers at random and give them guns. That's a strawman.
Second, stealing a gun and bum rushing someone for a gun are entirely different, they're on totally different scales of action and intent. It's the same as stealing a parked car versus car jacking someone. If you assault someone in an attempt to take a gun away from them by force, which is what bum rushing is, then you're doing it with the intent, or at least knowledge that you'll likely have to, shoot someone as soon as you get the weapon.
Third, that's the point of a firearm, to equalize people. You don't have to be physically imposing or threatening or stronger with a firearm. The weapon takes care of that in most cases. That's why we can have female police officers. And in the rare cases where it doesn't get the message across and some kid or kids may bum rush a teacher, then those same kids are the ones who would shoot up the school and I have no problem with them being shot.
Fourth, I haven't seen anyone argue that we should simply pick out teachers at random and give them guns. That's a strawman.
MethDozer · M
@Sicarium "Wait, first off, which is it? Did you see people bum rushing a teacher in school for their gun or not? "
Can you not follow or are you hard of reading comprehension and understanding? Not, for a gun. I've seen teachers bum rushed and held down silly.
It's not that ,much different at all. It's very similar because it's going to an armed person to try and take their gun. It shows that people have already engaged in the risk to try and obtain them.
If you think just being in possession of gun equalizes you and all it takes then you're an idiot. Sorry, I don't like to call names in discussions but if you think that you are mistaken and ignorant. A gun is little without training in both function and use along with nerve and situational training. Especially in an institutional setting with large groups such as a school.
I never actually said your fourth part so no there is no strawman.
You really think it's that easy to be focused on teaching while having the situational awareness neccessary to be an armed threat? That's a lot of discipline a for the average civilian. Fuck even cops and military fuck it up sometimes. So know you want an average person to multitask and expect them not to? WOW
Can you not follow or are you hard of reading comprehension and understanding? Not, for a gun. I've seen teachers bum rushed and held down silly.
It's not that ,much different at all. It's very similar because it's going to an armed person to try and take their gun. It shows that people have already engaged in the risk to try and obtain them.
If you think just being in possession of gun equalizes you and all it takes then you're an idiot. Sorry, I don't like to call names in discussions but if you think that you are mistaken and ignorant. A gun is little without training in both function and use along with nerve and situational training. Especially in an institutional setting with large groups such as a school.
I never actually said your fourth part so no there is no strawman.
You really think it's that easy to be focused on teaching while having the situational awareness neccessary to be an armed threat? That's a lot of discipline a for the average civilian. Fuck even cops and military fuck it up sometimes. So know you want an average person to multitask and expect them not to? WOW
Sicarium · 46-50, M
@MethDozer
Me:
You:
Which is why I tried to clarify. If you want to be a dick about it, I can just assume you were intentionally alluding to something you didn't actually see. Or we could just leave the dick-ness out of it.
Yes, it is different. You're just being obtuse. One case, you're trying to steal a gun. You're hoping to not get caught and to get out of the house with the weapon. In the other, you don't care about being caught because you're trying to take the weapon to use it immediately. Different.
Wrong. That was the entire point of firearms. You no longer had to be the strongest guy with a broadsword or the guy with the longest reach for a pike. That's the entire reasoning behind using a firearm to defend yourself from a rape, the man is physically stronger but the firearm equalizes you. If you don't comprehend this, then you've never really seriously thought about exactly what firearms are or why they are important. Your short-sightedness is not my problem. If you want to know more, Google 'firearm equalizers'. There's a whole world of reading to choose from.
Right...you don't like to call people names but you did it twice needlessly. Mmkay. I see leaving the dick-ness out of it isn't going to happen. Fine.
Sure you have. You've been talking as if random teachers with zero training would just walk into class one day with a weapon. If you need quotes, I'll provide them.
Armed teachers would not be an "armed threat." They wouldn't be actively looking to shoot people. They would be a passive defense in case of necessity. And we've had schools experimenting with this for a few years now. There hasn't been an issue yet, and teachers haven't been unable to teach. So, it seems irrelevant and grasping at straws. Also, again, we wouldn't be picking teachers out at random and giving them guns. I thought I covered that with "forcing would be bad," but I keep having to repeat it.
Concealed carriers seem to do fine on a daily basis and armed teachers are currently teaching. So, yeah, wow.
Also, yeah, cops are fully capable of doing their duties and being human when carrying a firearm. They don't randomly get confused and shoot you instead of writing you a speeding ticket.
Finally, we're already experimenting with armed teachers. We have been for years. So keep calling me an idiot if that's all you can do, I've got reality on my side.
Me:
It's not exactly like being bum rushed for your gun is a common occurrence. Think it's a mistake to just assume it'll happen in a school.
You:
Not really. I seen it happen at my HS a few times as a kid.
Which is why I tried to clarify. If you want to be a dick about it, I can just assume you were intentionally alluding to something you didn't actually see. Or we could just leave the dick-ness out of it.
It's not that ,much different at all. It's very similar because it's going to an armed person to try and take their gun. It shows that people have already engaged in the risk to try and obtain them.
Yes, it is different. You're just being obtuse. One case, you're trying to steal a gun. You're hoping to not get caught and to get out of the house with the weapon. In the other, you don't care about being caught because you're trying to take the weapon to use it immediately. Different.
If you think just being in possession of gun equalizes you and all it takes then you're an idiot.
Wrong. That was the entire point of firearms. You no longer had to be the strongest guy with a broadsword or the guy with the longest reach for a pike. That's the entire reasoning behind using a firearm to defend yourself from a rape, the man is physically stronger but the firearm equalizes you. If you don't comprehend this, then you've never really seriously thought about exactly what firearms are or why they are important. Your short-sightedness is not my problem. If you want to know more, Google 'firearm equalizers'. There's a whole world of reading to choose from.
...then you're an idiot.
Sorry, I don't like to call names in discussions but if you think that you are mistaken and ignorant.
Right...you don't like to call people names but you did it twice needlessly. Mmkay. I see leaving the dick-ness out of it isn't going to happen. Fine.
I never actually said your fourth part so no there is no strawman
Sure you have. You've been talking as if random teachers with zero training would just walk into class one day with a weapon. If you need quotes, I'll provide them.
You really think it's that easy to be focused on teaching while having the situational awareness necessary to be an armed threat?
Armed teachers would not be an "armed threat." They wouldn't be actively looking to shoot people. They would be a passive defense in case of necessity. And we've had schools experimenting with this for a few years now. There hasn't been an issue yet, and teachers haven't been unable to teach. So, it seems irrelevant and grasping at straws. Also, again, we wouldn't be picking teachers out at random and giving them guns. I thought I covered that with "forcing would be bad," but I keep having to repeat it.
That's a lot of discipline a for the average civilian. Fuck even cops and military fuck it up sometimes. So know you want an average person to multitask and expect them not to? WOW
Concealed carriers seem to do fine on a daily basis and armed teachers are currently teaching. So, yeah, wow.
Also, yeah, cops are fully capable of doing their duties and being human when carrying a firearm. They don't randomly get confused and shoot you instead of writing you a speeding ticket.
Finally, we're already experimenting with armed teachers. We have been for years. So keep calling me an idiot if that's all you can do, I've got reality on my side.
MethDozer · M
@Sicarium The short sightedness being displayed here is too much.
f you really think having a gun alone makes you equal then there is no point in continuing. Agree to disagree.
I guess I was fine enough just owning my firearms the past 25 years and all the practice with them and other security measures I've taken in life were a waste of money. Reacting to a threat and shooting them is just so easy-peasy anyone can do it.🙄
"Also, yeah, cops are fully capable of doing their duties and being human when carrying a firearm. They don't randomly get confused and shoot you instead of writing you a speeding ticket."
Umm shit like that happens kinda often in the real world. So yeah... Not to mention if you think teaching an entire class of children or teens is anything like writing a traffic ticket to one adult you have no respect for the profession.
f you really think having a gun alone makes you equal then there is no point in continuing. Agree to disagree.
I guess I was fine enough just owning my firearms the past 25 years and all the practice with them and other security measures I've taken in life were a waste of money. Reacting to a threat and shooting them is just so easy-peasy anyone can do it.🙄
"Also, yeah, cops are fully capable of doing their duties and being human when carrying a firearm. They don't randomly get confused and shoot you instead of writing you a speeding ticket."
Umm shit like that happens kinda often in the real world. So yeah... Not to mention if you think teaching an entire class of children or teens is anything like writing a traffic ticket to one adult you have no respect for the profession.
Sicarium · 46-50, M
@MethDozer
I specifically said most cases. But hey, why bother actually reading and comprehending when you can pretend to be superior instead?
So you believe you have some super-human capability that the rest of the human population is unable to attain? Sorry, you're not that special.
Weasel words that mean nothing. Define "kinda often".
That's not what I said, at all. Why be an asshole? Why the moralizing? But since you want to play that game, you seem to think teachers have some inability to learn how to use a firearm. But you've learned. Why do you believe teachers as a whole are so inferior to you?
Actually, skip that. You're more interested in twisting what I say to suit some need to be morally superior. So, fuck it. Useless conversation and complete waste of time.
We currently have armed teachers. They're doing fine. If a situation happens where they're not fine, we'll deal with it and adapt. Your hysteria is pointless. Have fun.
The short sightedness being displayed here is too much.
f you really think having a gun alone makes you equal then there is no point in continuing.
f you really think having a gun alone makes you equal then there is no point in continuing.
I specifically said most cases. But hey, why bother actually reading and comprehending when you can pretend to be superior instead?
I guess I was fine enough just owning my firearms the past 25 years and all the practice with them and other security measures I've taken in life were a waste of money. Reacting to a threat and shooting them is just so easy-peasy anyone can do it.
So you believe you have some super-human capability that the rest of the human population is unable to attain? Sorry, you're not that special.
Umm shit like that happens kinda often in the real world.
Weasel words that mean nothing. Define "kinda often".
So yeah... Not to mention if you think teaching an entire class of children or teens is anything like writing a traffic ticket to one adult you have no respect for the profession.
That's not what I said, at all. Why be an asshole? Why the moralizing? But since you want to play that game, you seem to think teachers have some inability to learn how to use a firearm. But you've learned. Why do you believe teachers as a whole are so inferior to you?
Actually, skip that. You're more interested in twisting what I say to suit some need to be morally superior. So, fuck it. Useless conversation and complete waste of time.
We currently have armed teachers. They're doing fine. If a situation happens where they're not fine, we'll deal with it and adapt. Your hysteria is pointless. Have fun.
MethDozer · M
@Sicarium "
So you believe you have some super-human capability that the rest of the human population is unable to attain? Sorry, you're not that special'
Yum yum yum, that's some sweet spin doctoring and word twisting. lol
Sorry, but if you need someone to define often then we are done here. Go on, take your few small cases of a few rural places having armed teachers for a few short years as proof this is going to go off great. Let the teachers handle the jobs of police instead of putting police where they should be. Why bring in the professional. Gun is gun and go boom so is all need. 👍
So you believe you have some super-human capability that the rest of the human population is unable to attain? Sorry, you're not that special'
Yum yum yum, that's some sweet spin doctoring and word twisting. lol
Sorry, but if you need someone to define often then we are done here. Go on, take your few small cases of a few rural places having armed teachers for a few short years as proof this is going to go off great. Let the teachers handle the jobs of police instead of putting police where they should be. Why bring in the professional. Gun is gun and go boom so is all need. 👍