I Am a Social Democrat
Well, it's the 1st of may, Happy labour day! 🌹🌹🌹🌹
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[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLFmizqpu8A]
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLFmizqpu8A]
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
LeopoldBloom · M
@Qwerty14 That significance is why they chose May 1.
@LeopoldBloom I assume it's the same reason they picked December 25 for Christmas. Easy to celebrate on an already existing holiday
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 I looked this up before, because I had this conversation before.
If my sources are correct, labour day was set by labour-organisations because of the they wanted an 8 hour work day. During a congress of the 2nd international in 1889 they decided to choose the 1st of may in 1890 as "Labour Day". The idea came from the American Federation of Labour (AFL - A labour union). They used the 1st of may to let one sector go on strike while other sectors worked on to fill the warchest so they can pay for the strikes.
In other countries, huge protests where held [i](France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the United States)[/i]. In favor of the 8 hour work week and proposals to resolve other social issues [i](like labour laws, that protect the labourers trough labour contracts)[/i].
In 1891 they decided to make it into a tradition. But certain countries [i](like the Brits)[/i] wanted this day to be held on the first sunday of May. Mainly the french were against this.
Later on this became a tradition in certain countries and through governement they got an official day off. In the US however president Grover Cleveland made the choice to move away from the 1st of may, because he was afraid that it would become a rememberance of the "Haymarket Affaire", which was a riot in Chicago from labour-movements and anarchists that lead to violence for 4 days in 1886.
Certain other countries also choice other days according to their internal cultural issues.
If my sources are correct, labour day was set by labour-organisations because of the they wanted an 8 hour work day. During a congress of the 2nd international in 1889 they decided to choose the 1st of may in 1890 as "Labour Day". The idea came from the American Federation of Labour (AFL - A labour union). They used the 1st of may to let one sector go on strike while other sectors worked on to fill the warchest so they can pay for the strikes.
In other countries, huge protests where held [i](France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the United States)[/i]. In favor of the 8 hour work week and proposals to resolve other social issues [i](like labour laws, that protect the labourers trough labour contracts)[/i].
In 1891 they decided to make it into a tradition. But certain countries [i](like the Brits)[/i] wanted this day to be held on the first sunday of May. Mainly the french were against this.
Later on this became a tradition in certain countries and through governement they got an official day off. In the US however president Grover Cleveland made the choice to move away from the 1st of may, because he was afraid that it would become a rememberance of the "Haymarket Affaire", which was a riot in Chicago from labour-movements and anarchists that lead to violence for 4 days in 1886.
Certain other countries also choice other days according to their internal cultural issues.
@Kwek00 It's so weird that other countries decided on having a labour day for such arbitrary reasons. My nation just chose to celebrate workers on the anniversary of their 8 hour day achievement. But I'm glad other nations also adopted labour day. It's a good idea to honour the workforce
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 It's not really to honour the workforce. It's to honour achievements that created better circumstances for the workforce.
When it comes to choosing a day, there will always be some arbitrary things going on. The 1st of may wasn't arbitrary, since in the US there already been an incident between the 1st and 4th of may in Chicago. So the American labour union that proposed this, did see it as something symbolic. Just like the president of the US Gover Cleveland (1893), was afraid that this symbolism would create troubles in the future and moved away from it.
When it comes to choosing a day, there will always be some arbitrary things going on. The 1st of may wasn't arbitrary, since in the US there already been an incident between the 1st and 4th of may in Chicago. So the American labour union that proposed this, did see it as something symbolic. Just like the president of the US Gover Cleveland (1893), was afraid that this symbolism would create troubles in the future and moved away from it.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 But it was a coordinated action, through the 2nd international. The US union proposed it, and others agreed. And that's why certain nations (as mentioned above) did actions on the same day. Because of solidarity.
This isn't uncommon, even today certain labour unions hold really good communications with eachother. If a certain sector faces a problem in a certain nation, sometimes the same sector in other nations feel the need to strike together. So that the action becomes more international. This class idea goes beyond nations, it's about the conditions of the working class as a whole not about what nation a segment of this class belongs too.
This isn't uncommon, even today certain labour unions hold really good communications with eachother. If a certain sector faces a problem in a certain nation, sometimes the same sector in other nations feel the need to strike together. So that the action becomes more international. This class idea goes beyond nations, it's about the conditions of the working class as a whole not about what nation a segment of this class belongs too.
@Kwek00 You live in a very different world than me. I admire your passion and optimism but to me, it's arbitrary and dumb for countries to pick a day with no real significance to them. Imagine if we all celebrated our nation's anniversary on July 4th just because the US did. Or New Years in February just because the Chinese do.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 It wasn't condescending at all.
Your nations birthday, has no international characteristics. It's something that concerns your nation alone.
New Year, does have a more international characteristics. But not all nations have the same new year, but a lot of them do. This day has historical roots, but at some point someone in history arbitrary choice that this day was the beginning of the new year when they installed the calendar. They could have just made the calendar and start it at the 1st of may, 1st of february, ... etc. But they choice the 1st of january. And they also choice when the 1st of january started. Because of historical reasons, this day became significant for other countries which adopted this idea from the source. If they would reason like you they would go: "why do we need to do the same thing as them, we can choose our own new year it's totally arbitrary", and they would have been right, but that's not what happened.
In France for instance, this idea that this is arbitrary and that you can change the calendar and the new-year was actually done during the french revolution. Where the Jacobins changed the calendar for a while in their attempt to overthrow all the old traditions and reinstate new ones that they perceived were set by "the people". And they did it in totally arbitrary faschion, because there is no "objective" 1st day of the year.
Your nations birthday, has no international characteristics. It's something that concerns your nation alone.
New Year, does have a more international characteristics. But not all nations have the same new year, but a lot of them do. This day has historical roots, but at some point someone in history arbitrary choice that this day was the beginning of the new year when they installed the calendar. They could have just made the calendar and start it at the 1st of may, 1st of february, ... etc. But they choice the 1st of january. And they also choice when the 1st of january started. Because of historical reasons, this day became significant for other countries which adopted this idea from the source. If they would reason like you they would go: "why do we need to do the same thing as them, we can choose our own new year it's totally arbitrary", and they would have been right, but that's not what happened.
In France for instance, this idea that this is arbitrary and that you can change the calendar and the new-year was actually done during the french revolution. Where the Jacobins changed the calendar for a while in their attempt to overthrow all the old traditions and reinstate new ones that they perceived were set by "the people". And they did it in totally arbitrary faschion, because there is no "objective" 1st day of the year.
@Kwek00 You are proving my point. It's an arbitrary thing when it's without local, cultural, significance. That's why countries don't all celebrate on January. The Maori for instance, celebrate in July. The Chinese in February. The Romans celebrate it in the month of beginnings (aka January). The Greeks called it the first month. The Egyptians went by the zodiac. All of them had a local cultural reason for their day. It's not arbitrarily decided by one nation and then thrust upon the world, then disregarded by said nation. That would be total lunacy lol
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 I celebrate the 1st of januari as the first day of the year because everyone else does the same thing and I grew up in a culture that does.
Annyway... If you celebrate the 1st of januari, this tradition started at some point. And the start of that tradition wasn't made by something that is "objective". There is no point in time that some figure that runs the universe came to humanity and said: "well the universe dictates that the 1st of januari is the 1st day of year". Even stronger, "januari" and "calendar" and "year" are all constructions made up by humanity. There might be reasoning behind it, but at the end choices had to be made and these choices are arbitrary.
And because this tradition got following, either throug conquest or adoption. Other people started doing the same thing. And now you grow up in a cultural habitat where this all is "normal" to you, but if you start thinking about it, it's just normal because you excist within a cultural bubble. The roots of that tradtion, just like the roots of labour day, were choices made by people and it created a tradition. Just like labour day, which was a proces through adoption, the 1st of january became a tradition. But the at the source of that tradition is still a choice made by human beings.
Annyway... If you celebrate the 1st of januari, this tradition started at some point. And the start of that tradition wasn't made by something that is "objective". There is no point in time that some figure that runs the universe came to humanity and said: "well the universe dictates that the 1st of januari is the 1st day of year". Even stronger, "januari" and "calendar" and "year" are all constructions made up by humanity. There might be reasoning behind it, but at the end choices had to be made and these choices are arbitrary.
And because this tradition got following, either throug conquest or adoption. Other people started doing the same thing. And now you grow up in a cultural habitat where this all is "normal" to you, but if you start thinking about it, it's just normal because you excist within a cultural bubble. The roots of that tradtion, just like the roots of labour day, were choices made by people and it created a tradition. Just like labour day, which was a proces through adoption, the 1st of january became a tradition. But the at the source of that tradition is still a choice made by human beings.
@Kwek00 Actually years, months, weeks etc arent arbitrary. They're based on solar and lunar cycles. And the 1st day of the year changes quite a bit culture to culture. The Greeks and the Romans didnt always celebrate January. In fact you can thank Christians mostly for pushing that on the world. Not arbitrarily but because they wanted the 1st after Christmas as they used Christmas as a yearly indicator. Christmas day itself was chosen to line up with the winter solstice, so again, not arbitrary.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 🤦♂️ Calendars have been diffrent trough time because of diffrent choices. The choice of taking solar and lunar cycles is a "reason" to make a choice, but it doesn't have to be.
[quote]There might be reasoning behind it, but at the end choices had to be made and these choices are arbitrary.[/quote]
And I know this: [i]"And the 1st day of the year changes quite a bit culture to culture."[/i] , and yet a lot of nations use the same callendar with the same 1st day of the year because of "adoption" or "conquest".
And Christmas was also a choice made by early christian leaders. Christmas isn't described in the bible on a certain date. How can it be? Because when accounts of the bible were described, the Gregorian calendar wasn' even in effect.
Your innitial point was:
[i]"it's arbitrary and dumb for countries to pick a day with no real significance to them. [...] Or New Years in February just because the Chinese do."[/i]
But when it comes to "New Years", then I guess we are all arbitrary and dumb because at some point in time, because of historical reasons, a lot of us adopted the Gregorian Calendar which was by itself a dictate from some people that invented it. We adopted it, and later on we adopted the idea that 1st of januari was the beginning of the year.
Like we adopt a lot of cultural things from eachother over time. Like "Santa Claus", is totally made up, started in the US, has verry little to do with christianity as a whole and yet comes down a lot of chimneys all over the world. Because nations "adopt" culture and ideas. Just like the Greeks adopted the Gregorian Calendar and at some point adopted the 1st of january, which you know inherrited through culture.
[quote]There might be reasoning behind it, but at the end choices had to be made and these choices are arbitrary.[/quote]
And I know this: [i]"And the 1st day of the year changes quite a bit culture to culture."[/i] , and yet a lot of nations use the same callendar with the same 1st day of the year because of "adoption" or "conquest".
And Christmas was also a choice made by early christian leaders. Christmas isn't described in the bible on a certain date. How can it be? Because when accounts of the bible were described, the Gregorian calendar wasn' even in effect.
Your innitial point was:
[i]"it's arbitrary and dumb for countries to pick a day with no real significance to them. [...] Or New Years in February just because the Chinese do."[/i]
But when it comes to "New Years", then I guess we are all arbitrary and dumb because at some point in time, because of historical reasons, a lot of us adopted the Gregorian Calendar which was by itself a dictate from some people that invented it. We adopted it, and later on we adopted the idea that 1st of januari was the beginning of the year.
Like we adopt a lot of cultural things from eachother over time. Like "Santa Claus", is totally made up, started in the US, has verry little to do with christianity as a whole and yet comes down a lot of chimneys all over the world. Because nations "adopt" culture and ideas. Just like the Greeks adopted the Gregorian Calendar and at some point adopted the 1st of january, which you know inherrited through culture.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Qwerty14 Man, if you have a choice to make, and everyone starts giving you arguments why a certain choice is better then another choice. But none of the arguments actually are so good that it would be stupid not to take the choice, then you that makes the descision will "value" one choice over the other because you are the arbiter. These are ussually the thoughest choices, because there is no net-worth that is better then the other, and that's why the choice isn't shared by most people in the begin with. People just value one thing over the other because they "feel" (no rational behind it, just feelings) that their choice is better. The maker of the choice, is therefore arbitrary, (s)he just makes the descision.
Like the "lunar cycle" today looks like this:
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At some point in time, someone made the choice to make the mooncyle start with what we call "new moon". To call it "NEW moon" is already part of the choice, because it's the NEW one. But if in that point of the time the person choice to start with "full moon" as being the "NEW moon", and we all would adopted it, and it became part of culture. Then we would all consider this "normal" today instead of the cycle that we know now. Because the moon doesn't care when we start what we see as cycle. Nothing in the universe dictates that our model has to be like that. Someone just decided that it was, and someone arbitrary decided where it started.
Like the "lunar cycle" today looks like this:
At some point in time, someone made the choice to make the mooncyle start with what we call "new moon". To call it "NEW moon" is already part of the choice, because it's the NEW one. But if in that point of the time the person choice to start with "full moon" as being the "NEW moon", and we all would adopted it, and it became part of culture. Then we would all consider this "normal" today instead of the cycle that we know now. Because the moon doesn't care when we start what we see as cycle. Nothing in the universe dictates that our model has to be like that. Someone just decided that it was, and someone arbitrary decided where it started.