I Have Legitimate Concerns About Islam And That's Not Bigotry
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1l4gGkPziA]
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
room101 · 51-55, M
@Northwest. Whenever we employ rhetoric and hyperbole in a discussion, we inevitably end up losing sight of the central points of that discussion. Something that we’ve both been guilty of. However, as with most things, it’s often important to see who instigated these distractions and who reacted to them.
I posted the video clip without any accompanying comments. I’m not so disingenuous as to suggest that I have no motive or agenda. We’ll come to what my motives are later.
I got three responses which I dealt with as briefly as was warranted by the content and brevity of those responses. And then you came along. You start by pointing out the frequency that this video clip has been posted and commenting on the bonafides of Brigitte Gabriel. To me, these were nothing more than distractions. I have been to Lebanon a number of times. I have worked there, with Lebanese people. I know, and have worked with, many Lebanese people here in the UK. I know and have worked with many Maronites (both Lebanese and non-Lebanese) in my homeland. I know what happened in South Lebanon during the civil war. I know that the town of Marjayoun is a predominantly Christian town and has been for hundreds and hundreds of years. I know that the Maronite people have been persecuted, because of this religious choice, throughout their history. If all of that (and a career spent in a number of Middle Eastern and North African nations) makes me a demagogue, then so be it.
I’m not interested in whether Ms Gabriel may or may have not exaggerated her childhood traumas. What I’m interested in is her work. You, on the other hand, feel that these exaggerations go to her accuracy and her intent. I’m happy with her intent and the intent of others that I have specifically named. Others that you completely ignored. So let’s look at her accuracy.
“There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today. Of course, not all of them are radicals the majority of them are peaceful people. The radicals are estimated to be between 15% to 25% according to all intelligence services around the world.”
According to The Pew Research Centre, as of 2010, there were 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and that population is projected to grow by 35% between 2010 and 2050. In 2013 The Pew Research Centre polled Muslims around the world about attacks on civilians. Of those polled, 72% said that it was never justified but, there was a range of 14% to 40% (depending on country polled) who said that such violence was sometimes or often justified. I don’t know about you but, for an off the cuff bit of statistics, that’s pretty damned accurate to me.
“When you look throughout history, when you look at all the lessons of history most Germans were peaceful, yet the Nazis drove the agenda and as a result 60-million people died, almost 14-million in concentration camps, 6-million were Jews. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
When you look at Russia most Russians were peaceful as well, yet the Russians were able to kill 20-million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. When you look at China for example most Chinese were peaceful as well, yet the Chinese were able to kill 70-million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
When you look at Japan prior to World War II most Japanese were peaceful as well, yet Japan was able to butcher its way across Southeast Asia killing 12-million people mostly killed with bayonet and shovels. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.”
Your response to this is both ridiculous and hypocritical in the extreme. Nations go to war. People sign up to fight in these wars. People are conscripted to fight in these wars. They sign up because of patriotism and a sense of duty, because of basic survival, because of desperation and because of ignorance. But, to you, Russians are little more than aggressive sleepwalkers and Germans and Japanese were (are?) barbaric warmongers. And yet you have the audacity to state that people like me and Brigitte Gabriel are spreading messages of hate. And let’s just skip past your nonsense about maths and what constitutes a majority because it’s even more irrelevant than “the peaceful majority”.
But your most astounding distraction came when discussing Khomeini. I stated that it was his rise to power that kick started the Islamic terrorism that we are all suffering with today. Instead of addressing this point (if you have an issue with it) you chose to bang on about how he came to power and the role that Great Britain played in that event. Mate, that is the very definition of a strawman argument right there!
So why did you do that? What’s your motive? Do you honestly believe that Britain’s oil interests, twentyfive years prior to Khomeini’s ascension to power, were a determining factor in the advent of Islamic radicalization? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you what would have happened in Iran, and the rest of the Islamic world, if Mosaddegh had stayed in power? Do you somehow know that Khomeini wouldn’t have become Supreme Leader and there wouldn’t have been a rise in Islamic fundamentalism regardless? If you do then perhaps you should take another look at events in Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt and Syria since 2010. Also have a look at events in Afghanistan since 1978.
Or, maybe, what you were really doing was creating yet more distractions. Maybe, you looked at my profile, saw that I was British and decided to go on a path of pointless mud-slinging. Pretty rich given America’s track record. But guess what, I’m British by citizenship (something that I am proud to be able to say) only. My place of birth, my heritage, my culture, my inherent identity, all stem from a former British colony. For generations my family fought for independence. So I know better than most what British colonialism actually means. Oh and by the way, your implication that it was the British who introduced slavery to the Americas is as daft as pretty much everything else that you’ve come out with. It was the Portuguese.
I said earlier that we would come back to my motives for posting this video clip. Look at the title of this group. Look at my suggested solution for Islamic terrorism. Yes, education and better living conditions and better overall opportunities are all important but, these alone do nothing when religion is at the core of this form of terrorism. One has to seek reforms in that religion and reforms always start when the population involved actually begins to question the dogma and ideology of that religion. Also, lets not forget just how wealthy Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia are. Keeping this in mind, why is it up to the West to bring about these improvements?
Now, Mr Northwest, if you can restrict yourself to the pertinent points of this discussion, I would be happy to continue this dialogue. If, however, you want continue with rhetoric, hyperbole, strawman arguments and all other forms of distractions, then don’t be surprised at the response that you may get.
I posted the video clip without any accompanying comments. I’m not so disingenuous as to suggest that I have no motive or agenda. We’ll come to what my motives are later.
I got three responses which I dealt with as briefly as was warranted by the content and brevity of those responses. And then you came along. You start by pointing out the frequency that this video clip has been posted and commenting on the bonafides of Brigitte Gabriel. To me, these were nothing more than distractions. I have been to Lebanon a number of times. I have worked there, with Lebanese people. I know, and have worked with, many Lebanese people here in the UK. I know and have worked with many Maronites (both Lebanese and non-Lebanese) in my homeland. I know what happened in South Lebanon during the civil war. I know that the town of Marjayoun is a predominantly Christian town and has been for hundreds and hundreds of years. I know that the Maronite people have been persecuted, because of this religious choice, throughout their history. If all of that (and a career spent in a number of Middle Eastern and North African nations) makes me a demagogue, then so be it.
I’m not interested in whether Ms Gabriel may or may have not exaggerated her childhood traumas. What I’m interested in is her work. You, on the other hand, feel that these exaggerations go to her accuracy and her intent. I’m happy with her intent and the intent of others that I have specifically named. Others that you completely ignored. So let’s look at her accuracy.
“There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today. Of course, not all of them are radicals the majority of them are peaceful people. The radicals are estimated to be between 15% to 25% according to all intelligence services around the world.”
According to The Pew Research Centre, as of 2010, there were 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and that population is projected to grow by 35% between 2010 and 2050. In 2013 The Pew Research Centre polled Muslims around the world about attacks on civilians. Of those polled, 72% said that it was never justified but, there was a range of 14% to 40% (depending on country polled) who said that such violence was sometimes or often justified. I don’t know about you but, for an off the cuff bit of statistics, that’s pretty damned accurate to me.
“When you look throughout history, when you look at all the lessons of history most Germans were peaceful, yet the Nazis drove the agenda and as a result 60-million people died, almost 14-million in concentration camps, 6-million were Jews. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
When you look at Russia most Russians were peaceful as well, yet the Russians were able to kill 20-million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. When you look at China for example most Chinese were peaceful as well, yet the Chinese were able to kill 70-million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
When you look at Japan prior to World War II most Japanese were peaceful as well, yet Japan was able to butcher its way across Southeast Asia killing 12-million people mostly killed with bayonet and shovels. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.”
Your response to this is both ridiculous and hypocritical in the extreme. Nations go to war. People sign up to fight in these wars. People are conscripted to fight in these wars. They sign up because of patriotism and a sense of duty, because of basic survival, because of desperation and because of ignorance. But, to you, Russians are little more than aggressive sleepwalkers and Germans and Japanese were (are?) barbaric warmongers. And yet you have the audacity to state that people like me and Brigitte Gabriel are spreading messages of hate. And let’s just skip past your nonsense about maths and what constitutes a majority because it’s even more irrelevant than “the peaceful majority”.
But your most astounding distraction came when discussing Khomeini. I stated that it was his rise to power that kick started the Islamic terrorism that we are all suffering with today. Instead of addressing this point (if you have an issue with it) you chose to bang on about how he came to power and the role that Great Britain played in that event. Mate, that is the very definition of a strawman argument right there!
So why did you do that? What’s your motive? Do you honestly believe that Britain’s oil interests, twentyfive years prior to Khomeini’s ascension to power, were a determining factor in the advent of Islamic radicalization? Do you have a crystal ball that tells you what would have happened in Iran, and the rest of the Islamic world, if Mosaddegh had stayed in power? Do you somehow know that Khomeini wouldn’t have become Supreme Leader and there wouldn’t have been a rise in Islamic fundamentalism regardless? If you do then perhaps you should take another look at events in Tunisia, Lybia, Egypt and Syria since 2010. Also have a look at events in Afghanistan since 1978.
Or, maybe, what you were really doing was creating yet more distractions. Maybe, you looked at my profile, saw that I was British and decided to go on a path of pointless mud-slinging. Pretty rich given America’s track record. But guess what, I’m British by citizenship (something that I am proud to be able to say) only. My place of birth, my heritage, my culture, my inherent identity, all stem from a former British colony. For generations my family fought for independence. So I know better than most what British colonialism actually means. Oh and by the way, your implication that it was the British who introduced slavery to the Americas is as daft as pretty much everything else that you’ve come out with. It was the Portuguese.
I said earlier that we would come back to my motives for posting this video clip. Look at the title of this group. Look at my suggested solution for Islamic terrorism. Yes, education and better living conditions and better overall opportunities are all important but, these alone do nothing when religion is at the core of this form of terrorism. One has to seek reforms in that religion and reforms always start when the population involved actually begins to question the dogma and ideology of that religion. Also, lets not forget just how wealthy Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia are. Keeping this in mind, why is it up to the West to bring about these improvements?
Now, Mr Northwest, if you can restrict yourself to the pertinent points of this discussion, I would be happy to continue this dialogue. If, however, you want continue with rhetoric, hyperbole, strawman arguments and all other forms of distractions, then don’t be surprised at the response that you may get.