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I Have Legitimate Concerns About Islam And That's Not Bigotry


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belseg · 31-35, F
OK I don't know how open you will be to actually get what I am about to say. I am Muslim. Raised by Muslims, in a Muslim country. At school we study religious education. We study the Quran and The Prophet's Bio. We have rules to follow in order to be considered as "true muslims" we have to respect all religions and we shouldn't force ANYONE to be a Muslim. If we ever have to participate in wars, there are rules: Never hurt unarmed man, Never hurt a woman, a child, or an eldery, never hurt an animal or a plant. Treat those in hostage well, feed them and treat their injuries. Those idiots who are blowing themselves in the name of Islam are not true muslims, because they do not follow the rules of the Quran. They are killing us too, muslims killing muslims in the name of Islam. How stupid is that!! I don't know if you want to believe that or you want to believe what media is telling you but you cannot ignore the fact that we are suffering from those extremists too.
Northwest · M
Interesting discussion.

Cizero: how do you know that, in moderate Muslim countries, public opinion is not against Islamic terrorism?

Did you know that Iran, which is a Sharia law country, issued, through its foreign ministry, a statement, condemning in the strongest terms, the terrorist attack that took the life of a French priest, a couple of days ago?

Not that I have a lot of respect for Iran's human rights record, but...

Did you know the target of the Kabul suicide bombers (a couple of days ago)? Hint: it was a demonstration against the Taliban.

I wonder if Pew published its methodology. Everyone keeps tossing this 25% number, as in Muslims in the US who support suicide bombings. What does that even mean? Let's take 3 Million, as the base number of US Muslims. If 25% support suicide bombings, why haven't we had 750,000 suicide bombings in the US?

We've had some attacks, but the most prominent one, points to a disturbed individual, US native, who claimed his attack on ISIS allegiance, when all the signs point to him being a psychopath, confused about his sexuality. By and large, the Muslim community, native and immigrant, in the US, religious or secular, pledges allegiance to the US, and all it stands for. Today, on the closing day of the Democratic National Convention, a Pakistani immigrant spoke. The topic: his son, a US Army Captain, who was killed fighting Islamic extremists, and he's only one of dozens of Muslim US soldiers killed, fighting Islamic terrorism.

Islam's holy book (and additional texts), is like other religious books: full of contradictions, sometime violence, sometime peace, and mostly stuff we cannot relate to in the 21st century. Big surprise! Can you relate to the Old Testament? How about the New Testament's concept of owning slaves?

One of the OPs, is from Tunisia. Why isn't Pew up to speed on what happens in Tunisia? How about Lebanon? How about Turkey? How about pre-Iraq invasion Syria? How about pre-invasion Iraq?

One of the idiots I debated on SW, earlier today, used the term "raghead". I asked what that meant, and the moron claimed that this is a term that refers to all Muslims and that they are all terrorists, as indicated by their headdress.

I pointed out to him, that the headdress, is cultural/regional, in parts of the Levant, and that in those parts, both Christians and Muslims wear it. That would be less than 10% of the Muslim population.

So, once more, are you certain that Islamic extremism, is not protested in Muslim countries?

Of course you believe what you said, because you don't see it covered in the Western press. I get my information, by reading it the regional press, in both Arabic and Hebrew. I never see it covered in the Western press.

To the Tunisian poster: Kudos for doing your "revolution" the right way. I've never been to Tunisia, but it's on my bucket list.
SW-User
My issue with religion is it makes the mind susceptible to believe the absurd

As Voltaire said
"If I can make you believe absurdities, I can make you commit atrocities"

I truly believe genetics not just culture play susceptible to religion. There will one day be a gene Identified related to the religious (other) conditioning of the brain...

Adding culture makes it express and potent
Cierzo · M
@Belseg. Opinions from Muslims are really appreciated. It is a great truth that Muslims are suffering terrorism. A couple of days ago IS killed more than 70 people in Kabul.
Wanted to ask you, according to you which is the reason why few Muslims voice out similar thoughts? Fear of being rejected by their families, neighbourhood, relugious community?
Cierzo · M
@Belseg. There is a region in my country that was ravaged in the past by an independent terrorist group. They killed policemen or politicians that were not big fish, but humble people born in the same soil whose independence were looking for.
With the passing of years, demonstrations happened where people shouted slogand like 'you are not our people, you are terrorists'. Demonstrators knew that showing their public opposition to that terrorist group they could be targeted.

I am telling this story because this is what I miss in Muslim communities. And I am pretty sure such demonstrations would not be silenced by the media. And even if they were, they would be known through social networks.
belseg · 31-35, F
We did many marches and many demonstrations, the thing with the Muslim community is that we are not as if one country. I am from Tunisia, we are free to do demonstration against terrorism, and we have so many rights that for example in Arabia Saudia don't have. People here along with the army are fighting against terrorism, there are mosques that went out of control because they are brainwashing poor young people to adapt the extremist ideas. But the government is closing them and making sure that lessons in Mosques do not promote violence. I swear we are doing what we can do but with media ignoring those and focusing on this bombed that killed, and never showing our support to affected countries, how are we going to make our voice heard. When people are sharing the wrong facts,and believing what they want to believe, and most of all promoting hatred, how is anyone going to see past that? If the heart is plagued with hatred, nothing will change that. But if you look closely and you pay attention to the small groups, you will see that we are trying so hard to show that we mean no harm. hhhhhh sometimes I feel like I'm an alien talking talking to earth
Northwest · M
I'm always amused, when someone, living in the midst of Western comfort, insists that people, who are targeted on DAILY basis, by suicide bombers, prove they opposed terrorism, by organizing demonstrations, to present bigger targets for the terrorists to hit. Just like what happened in Kabul earlier this week.

Moderate Muslims, are fighting a war against extremism, but to you, that's not enough. Every single day, dozens of moderates die, in Syria and Iraq, fighting against ISIS.

In places like Tunisia, and Lebanon, where it's possible to have a demonstration, it happens on regular basis.

Brutal as it might be, Saudi Arabia, executed more than 60 people over the past year, on charges that they belong to ISIS.

Iran, and Hizballah, lost thousands of soldiers, in the fight against ISIS. Not that Iran and Hizballah do not have their own agenda, but they seem to want a friendly relationship with Christiandom.

Yesterday, Al Qaeda's power base in Syria collapsed, when the largest group fighting under the Al Qaeda flag, announced that it renounced its allegiance. In my opinion, it may have more to do with the Syrian regime/Hizballah, closing in on its positions.
belseg · 31-35, F
Fighting terrorism in Tunisia is happening every single day. Everyday at least one soldier dies by a mine or by an ambush. We are working with Algeria to control the mountains, and you all know that Algeria has been fighting terrorism for a LONG time. ISIS is trying to invade us from the Libyan borders and the last time many innocent citizens who lived by the borders died, but the army did not let them go any further. We all know that in any country there are hidden agendas. We all know that there is corruption and dirty agents. The amount of guns, explosives, foreign currency, disposable cells etc that were captured was HUGE. Now our forces are doing their best, and us as citizens are doing our best as well. Calling the authorities if there is an unusual suspect despite knowing that they can attack anytime. No one can know what we are going through except those who live the same conditions. I am thankful to be living in a country where we survived so many attacks but never gave up on life and still celebrating .. All I wish for is for people to stop taking news and facts as it is and make an effort to do some research
Cierzo · M
@Northwest. This chart is only a small part of a whole research that also includes opinions of Muslim in other countries all around the world, and opinions of western citizens about Islam.
I had not heard about Pew Research before this poll.I don't know about the methodology used. If you know some reason why they are not reliable, please share it. I stick to the 'innocent until proven guilty' principle.

It is not surprising at all that a Shii country like Iran condemns Sunni terrorists. A great western mistake has been to support Sunni wahabist countries like Saudi Arabia or UAE.

About moderate Islam. I don't think that the majority of Muslims support terrorism, or am one of the dumbheads asking Islam to be banned in the western world. I just think that modetate Muslims taking a step forward and saying loud their opposition to terrorism in public demonstrations will improve the image of Islam.
belseg · 31-35, F
Something else, because a lady said it's not in the commenting, or courage is in action, the best way to fight terrorism is not for us taking the guns and kill them, that's the army's job not the citizens. But the best way to fight terrorism is we're protecting our children from those brainwashers. We teach them common sense, and ethics, and good morals, and how they treat living creatures good before teaching them about prayers or ramadan. When you look closely, a religion is never to blame. It's just a religion, but the person doing the action is the one to blame. because we all have brains, I know that killing innocents just because they're different is wrong, just the same as killing innocents because their country has oil is wrong as well.
novembermoon · 51-55
If they purport to subscribe to a peace-loving religion, the voice of this group must match up to or be louder than the action seen these few days. Otherwise, they amount to nothing but hypocrites.
belseg · 31-35, F
There is an interpration. Jihad means fight for your life. Studying is considered a Jihad because you're building a life. Working is considered Jihad because you're fighting to make a living. A mother raising her child is also considered a Jihad. Jihad in arabic, a liguistic definition, is fighting without arms. It's like saying "I will fight for you" to someone you love. And Quran existed in the era of Prophet Muhammed to guide him through those who tried to kill him. It came in a completely different context. What we should do in our time now is to use it for the good. If we don't understand a verse or a law, assume the good and do it.
belseg · 31-35, F
Look, you can't judge a WHOLE religion upon few who decided to be jerks and make it look awful. No one is talking about Buddhists killing and massacring Muslims in Burma. No one is talking about German Refugees after Second World War when Syrians welcomed them with open arms. We are trying so hard to show you that Islam is not a religion of violence. They simply took the rules and twisted them the way they wanted it. You're only watching what your government want you to watch. And by the way, I am not a refugee. And before you say anything I respect Buddhism and I know I shouldn't judge a religion just because few decided to be assholes in the name of the religion
belseg · 31-35, F
@cierzo thing is I don't blame you, because of the facts shown to you you were ought to believe that. I read about the buddhists killing muslims in Burma, but that's not the Buddhism to blame. I know it is one of the most peaceful religions out there. But I just chose not to blame every single Buddhist I meet. The least anyone can do is to respect the person talking to you ignoring where is he from, or his religion or sexuality. I don't mean you, you're really sweet, just talking in general. And violence is not solved by violence.
belseg · 31-35, F
@cierzo exactly. It's like the adults are fighting and the kids are looking around confused. We normal people are victims of the big guys' "fighting". I don't blame westerns for hating us, I don't blame them at all, I blame the media and whoever is behind that.

@northwest It feels good to see someone who is willing to do some research before judging. I am well aware of what Algerians think of us. Weird they don't complain when they come here and have fun with the ladies here.
belseg · 31-35, F
@cierzo I know, nothing is black and white. I am a perfect person. I have sins and I am not an angel. I am not trying to make those idiots who have extremist thinking look like victims. No, if I had a magical wand I would make anyone promoting hate disappear. I hope I helped somehow, I am doing my best to show you that we are trying. I am just one from billions. Just think not all of them have access to send their voice, either because of fear or lack of knowledge or they don't have internet hhhhhh
Northwest · M
@belseg "Weird they don't complain when they come here and have fun with the ladies here."

Not that weird, with their screwed up mentality (I don't mean all Algerian). This guy is a member of the Algerian Cabinet, but he was also talking about getting another wife, as his existing wife was getting old. By old, he meant 34 years.

Yeah, they don't seem to complain. They allow themselves, what they don't allow their daughters or sisters. That's hypocrisy to the max.
Cierzo · M
Tunisia has been strongly hit by terrorism. And it is true there is a lot of ignorance and many people believe that living conditions are the same in all Muslim countries.
You are right when you point at some radical imams, and agree that they should be closed and those who preach hate sent to jail.
Words like yours are really worth and necessary now. It is very easy to get carried away by hate and blame all Muslims. I admit I have done it too and I am not proud of it.
Northwest · M
Arabs make up less than 10% of Muslims :-)

I was having this discussion with some asshole yesterday. I had to point out to him, that the headdress, is cultural, and not religious, and that it only applies to parts of the Levant, where both Christians and Muslims wear it.

Lebanon has a strange set of rules, where they allow Muslims to have multiple wives, but it's illegal for non-Muslims.
Cierzo · M
@Belseg. Westerners should not hate you. Westerners should hate those who kill and those who preach hate and brainwash young people and make them think of joining IS.
Every day when I go out I see some Moroccan woman walking with their kids, going shopping. How could I think of her as a potential terrorist? Why should I hate her?
belseg · 31-35, F
@northwest I couldn't agree more, it's illegal to have multiple wives in Tunsia. it's the only Muslim country that does not allow that.

@cierzo you're right, all we can do is be the good example to change the view on us. Nothing else we can do. Actions speak louder than words
belseg · 31-35, F
@cierzo I don't know if it counts, but do you know that we as a country won the nobel prize of peace?? because we value peace as a country ..
You are right about being privileged I think nowadays no one is privileged, we're all in danger, no one is safe ..
Cierzo · M
I don't know if I should bother to answer. The 'you are a privileged westerner' accusation has an unbearable stenched. I don't believe there are 'privileged' ones. There are those who feel they are victims. This is a red line.

Can you please give some evidence of the demonstrations in Tunisia or Lebanon? Or that the one in Kabul was against terrorism? And do not musunderstand me. I want that evidence exists.

I remember Salman Rushdie who put his life in danger. I think of the Germans that had to leave their country in the nazi times. His example made the world realise that not all Germans agreed with their bloody Fuhrer. Where are they now?
Cierzo · M
Of course, it cannot be compared with action in the streets, but when you know you will probably ne attacked, keeping your mouth shut is easier. It is only the first step, yes, but it has to be taken.
SW-User
Belaeg: yes the most common person to be killed by an extremist Muslim is a Muslim

It's sad and of course not isolated to one religion

From an atheist perspective it's such a wanton waste of life...

Respect
SW-User
I think it's more a gene related to susceptibility
Not necessarily juts a "God" gene

Some psychological research shows kids don't seek a god... Culture exposes them
Cierzo · M
@Yeronlyman. Understand. But how could it explain the cases of people like me who have lived far from God most of their lives and later became believers?
Northwest · M
@belseg: I am well aware of the situation in Tunisia/Algeria.

The problem with us in the West, is that our media paints Islam with one huge brush.

I read the local media, in Arabic, French and Hebrew, but the Western media is not interested.

Algeria can use some more enlightenment. During my last visit to Algeria, in a meeting with an Algerian cabinet minister, the guy was complaining about Tunisian women, because they are equal to men. I was thinking to myself "perhaps you should try it in Algeria, it might do you a lot of good"
Memetic · 56-60, F
It needs to show the moderate muslim also defending islamic atrocities while burying head in the sand
belseg · 31-35, F
We are not afraid, we talk about that all the time, we say how horrible these people acting in the name of Islam all the time, we voted against the party who was encouraging such acts. It's just that media chooses not to show our opinions, not to put our voice so that the whole world hears us. That's I try to tell my opinion as a Muslim even though I receive many hate messages. But it's OK, I can take that if it means at least one person hears what I'm saying.
Cierzo · M
@yeronlymind. A religious gen? And it would be more frequent in a race than others?
Northwest · M
No, you should not bother answering. The term "privileged westerner", refers to people who live in the West and demand that people in other countries, who risk death or dismemberment, demonstrate.

http://bit.ly/2aP1Q1R


Here's a simple google search "demonstrations against ISIS in Tunisia"

Don't "bury your head in the sand"

It's easy to demonstrate in Tunisia and Lebanon. It's not in Kabul or Islamabad.
fredmohar · 36-40, M
@Cierzo: I don't care about the theoratical problems with their religion. I just see the results and I got to the conclusion that this religion (or rather ideology) is not compatible with our European lifestyle.
People discussed about the tiny differences between interpretations of communism but the end result was Gulag anyways.
Cierzo · M

Pew research is in my opinion a reliable source. According to this poll.
1- Most Muslims are against suicide bombings in every country
2- Nevertheless the percentage of those who agree with them is very high and worrying.
It is necessary that the voice of those who oppose terrorism is loud. Their testimonials are very relevant now, starting from here.
Cierzo · M
@fredmohar. The concept of 'jihad' is really difficult to grasp. As Islam does not have a centralised organisation, it has been interpreted in many ways, and sadly those who interpret it in the most literal violent way seem to be the most followed now.
I am not an expert at all and do not know which the right interpretation is, if there is one.
Memetic · 56-60, F
Novembermoon. That is the part muslims don't get. When asked to prove that it is a peaceful religion, their response is read the koran. It doesnt matter what the book says when your actions are not peaceful.

Btw- most muslims have never read the koran. It is full of violence. When i ask them to what sura 65:4 is about, or any other number, they can't answer
Cierzo · M
@_Novembermoon. You hit the nail once more.
Cierzo · M
Belseg, thank you so much for providing that first-hand information. Removing Gaddafi from power in Libya was a huge mistake, and those who did it have a great responsibility in what is happening. Sadly we are not informed of the danger of IS terrorists entering Tunisia or Algeria through the Libyan border.
Cierzo · M
Belseg, true. It is a fact that should be much more known that it is.
This thing with privilege drives me mad. It is unacceptable to blame Muslims as a whole for terrorist acts of some crazy fanatics. It is unacceptable to blame westerners as a whole for the violent war acts of some politicians.
sighmeupforthat · 46-50, M
Abolish religion
Memetic · 56-60, F
If commenting on the internet is courageous than all the thousands on SW that spew opinions everyday should get purple hearts. I appreciate diverse opinions but courage is in action. Not words
fredmohar · 36-40, M
Islam has always been a conqueror religion and still is. Like Christianity in the Middle Age.
There is no country with Muslim majority where you can have a normal, free life as a non-Muslim. Their next target is Europe.
Memetic · 56-60, F
Heres an article written by a muslim about "moderate muslims"
https://similarworlds.com/story?fid=7815882&tid=127193&name=I-Have-Legitimate-Concerns-About-Islam-And-That--0
Memetic · 56-60, F
Helseg. Fix YOUR religion and country instead of running away as refugees and expecting the western countries to solve your problems. Grow up and solve your own problems
Cierzo · M
Memetic, Belseg showed courage commenting here knowing she is likely to be bashed. She cannot change her religion, but can give interesting views from inside.
Northwest · M
@belseg: sorry, I did not mean to exclude the former Soviet Muslim republics that also outlaw Polygamy. I published that list a few weeks, in response to a bigot.
Northwest · M
@belseg: Turkey does not allow it either, but that might be at risk, if Erdogan gets his way.
Cierzo · M
@belseg. Just trying to understand what's going on, which is a lot and not black or white
Cierzo · M
Sighmeupforthat, it has already been attempted by communists and they failed
belseg · 31-35, F
@northwest true, somehow when I say Muslim country I think of Arab country, my mistake

 
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