I Am Enjoying Being A Muslim

@bigjohndl Respectfully sir, murder is one of the greatest sins according to Islam. There's no verse in the Quran says that people of other faiths should be killed.

@bigjohndl No disrespect but may I correct you John, We were told not to cut a tree or destroy a church or kill an old man, woman Or child [ That's back in the time of war] So do you actually think that's the same book who are teaching us how to be truly spiritual and encourage us to be more humans would tell anyone to go grab a gun and kill anyone!? No John you're wrong Islam never actually told anyone to kill, And Allah said if anyone killed an innocent soul [ not specified, Muslim. Christian. Jewish ] Doesn't matter just any innocent soul , its as all the human was killed for Allah.

Do not misunderstand me. with all respect you're wrong and before judging a book without even knowing the contains open it and read, then judge as much as you want :)

@bigjohndl Someone needs to read the Quran before talking about it misinformed.

@NorthernRoses Have you read the Quran?

@NorthernRoses Just curious. Were not the 9/11 bombers Muslims?

@SirAhmed Were not the 9/11 hijackers Muslim?

@bigjohndl So when a criminal belongs to certain religion means that he killed for religious reasons? Would you blame Atheism for crimes done by Atheists?

@Madeleine They were praising Allah and the Muslim world celebrated the fall of the towers. There was joy for the Muslims that day. Look at all the footage of the celebrations.

@bigjohndl How did you know they were praising Allah before committing their crime? Was it on TV?

Don't believe everything you see on TV though, they just choose what they want you to believe.

@NorthernRoses seriously? you're going with that?

“Fight against those who do not obey Allah and do not believe in Allah or the Last Day and do not forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His messenger even if they are of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29

“Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out. Persecution is worse than slaughter.” 2:191

“When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks.” 47:4

“When your Lord revealed to the angels, ‘Truly I am with you. So, keep firm those who have believed. I will strike terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved. So, strike them at the necks and cut off their fingers.’” 8:12

“Oh you who believe, fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you and let them find harshness in you.” 9:123

“Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow Him are merciful to one another but harsh to the disbeliever.” 48:29

“They wish that you would reject faith as they have rejected faith unless that you would all be equal. So, don’t take protectors from them unless they emigrate in the way of Allah but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them.” 4:89

And these are just a few of the "peaceful" verses from the Qur'an which, as can be seen from the numbering, are not from a specific place which can be deemed to be about a specific, and contextual, circumstance or event.

@room101 Thank you for looking that up.

@bigjohndl there are many, many more verses of a similar vein. but we're supposed to be misinformed infidels who have never read the Qur'an. yeah right!

@room101 Respectfully, I'd like to provide the context of each of those verses, and the historical events behind them.

[sep]

[Quran 9:29]
[quote]Fight those who do not believe in God, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, nor abide by the religion of truth—[b]from among those who received the Scripture[/b]—until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.[/quote]

This verse is a command to fight in battle the Byzantine Romans after the assassination of one of the Prophet’s ambassadors.

[sep]

[Quran 2:190-191]
[quote][b]And fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression; God does not love the aggressors.[/b] And kill them wherever you overtake them, and expel them from where they had expelled you. Oppression is more serious than murder. [b]But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you there. If they fight you, then kill them. Such is the retribution of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then God is Forgiving and Merciful.[/b][/quote]

This verse commands Muslims to fight in battle pagans of Mecca after they expelled Muslims from their homes.

[sep]

[Quran 47:4]
[quote]When you encounter those who disbelieve, strike at their necks. Then, when you have routed them, bind them firmly. Then, either release them by grace, or by ransom, [b]until war lays down its burdens[/b]. Had God willed, He could have defeated them Himself, but He thus tests some of you by means of others. As for those who are killed in the way of God, He will not let their deeds go to waste.[/quote]

This verse was revealed in context of war.

[sep]

[Quran 8:11-13]
[quote][b]He made drowsiness overcome you, as a security from Him. And He sent down upon you water from the sky, to cleanse you with it, and to rid you of Satan’s pollution, and to fortify your hearts, and to strengthen your foothold.[/b] Your Lord inspired the angels: “I am with you, so support those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. So strike above the necks, and strike off every fingertip of theirs.” [b]That is because they opposed God and His Messenger. Whoever opposes God and His Messenger—God is severe in retribution.[/b][/quote]

This verse is in context of Battle of Badr.

[sep]

The website you copied this verse from provided poor and misleading translation, here's the correct one:

[Quran 9:123]
[quote]O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers [b]who attack you[/b], and let them find severity in you, and know that God is with the righteous.[/quote]

[sep]

[Quran 48:29]
[quote]Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Those with him are stern against the disbelievers, yet compassionate amongst themselves. You see them kneeling, prostrating, seeking blessings from God and approval. Their marks are on their faces from the effects of prostration. Such is their description in the Torah, and their description in the Gospel: like a plant that sprouts, becomes strong, grows thick, and rests on its stem, impressing the farmers. Through them He enrages the disbelievers. God has promised those among them who believe and do good deeds forgiveness and a great reward.[/quote]

This verse was revealed when the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was returning to Madinah when he concluded the Truce of Hudaiybiyah. It refers to the Muslims who did not in any way cowe away or abandoned their faith in Islam, no matter how much the Quraysh were hostile, and persecuted the Muslims.

[sep]

[Quran 4:88-90]
[quote]What is the matter with you, divided into two factions regarding [b]the hypocrites[/b], when God Himself has overwhelmed them on account of what they did? Do you want to guide those whom God has led astray? Whomever God leads astray—you will never find for him a way. They would love to see you disbelieve, just as they disbelieve, so you would become equal. So do not befriend any of them, unless they emigrate in the way of God. If they turn away, seize them and execute them wherever you may find them; and do not take from among them allies or supporters. [b]Except those who join people with whom you have a treaty, or those who come to you reluctant to fight you or fight their own people[/b]. Had God willed, He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. [b]If they withdraw from you, and do not fight you, and offer you peace, then God assigns no excuse for you against them.[/b][/quote]

This verse clearly talks about the hypocrites who lived at the time of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

@Madeleine "Respectfully sir, murder is one of the greatest sins according to Islam. There's no verse in the Quran says that people of other faiths should be killed."

Your words, not mine. And yet there are verses within the Qur'an which specifically instruct Muslims to kill people of other faiths.

What was that about hypocrisy?

@room101 What I meant here is killing innocent people of other faiths. I believe that I provided contexts and historical events to each of the verses you mentioned, which all refer to disbelievers who were not by any means innocent. Plus, in the same passages you mentioned, there are verses that command Muslims to stop the fight if the disbelievers seek peace, which you did not provide in your post.

@Madeleine So that means if I am a disbeliever, then I am not innocent and therefore, I am to be killed?

@bigjohndl No sir, it means if you are a disbeliever and you are peaceful, then it's not allowed to kill you.

@Madeleine who defines peaceful? Is it peaceful to Muslims only or are you to judge my actions in life to determine if I am peaceful. If it is just against Muslims, then who judges what is not a peaceful act?

@bigjohndl Peaceful means that you are someone who did not attack anyone. In fact, someone who commits murders should be punished whether they were Muslims or not. Plus, Muslims are commanded to defend innocent people who cannot help themselves, whether they were Muslims or not.

@Madeleine Did you say that there are no verses in the Qur'an which instruct Muslims to kill people of other faiths?

Yes, you did.

Are there verses in the Qur'an which specifically instruct Muslims to kill people of other faiths?

Yes, there are.

There are passages in The Old Testament (namely Deuteronomy 13 and 17 and Numbers 31, which also has a specific context by the way) which say the same thing. However, the difference is, I'm yet to meet a Jew who tries to pretend that those passages are not there or that they have some other meaning.

@room101 There are also verses in the Quran that instruct Muslims to execute Muslims who commit murder. The message of Islam is to help those in need and to stand up against corruption. Those verses you mentioned were not to instruct Muslims to kill people of other faiths just because they are not Muslims, but because they attacked Muslims. It's for their actions and attitude, not for their faith.

@Madeleine And yet, the verses that I have reproduced (there are many more, as you no doubt know) specifically talk about non-believers and people of other faiths.

You argue that these verses are contextual and that they refer to specific events and specific circumstances. Meanwhile, your very peaceful brethren are murdering those who are accused of blaspheming against Islam and those of different faiths. No doubt, you will say that they are criminals and not real Muslims. WRONG!

Let’s go on a little journey into history.

More than 3,000 years ago, there was a significant cultural shift in a specific region in the Middle East. That cultural shift was the adoption of a monotheistic belief system which ultimately became Judaism. This wasn’t the first time that monotheism had been introduced but, in all other cases, this had been short lived and barely lasted a generation or two. However, in this case, Judaism stayed and grew. Soon, we had the kingdoms of Judea, Israel and Edom all of which were Jewish states and ultimately became the nation of Israel that we recognise today.

Some 2,500 years ago, the Jewish people decided to write down their story and the early incarnations of the Torah were created.

Another significant cultural shift occurred in the same region 2,000 years ago. This was brought about by the birth of a man named Jesus. He preached about Judaism, he was a Jew after all but, his overall message was about redemption and forgiveness.

Three hundred years later, a Roman emperor named Constantine decided to listen to his mother, Agia Sophia, and converted to Christianity. He convened the First Council of Nicaea which led to the Council of Rome some years later and, the creation of The Bible. This book begins with the story of the Jews (ie The Torah) and the Christians called it The Old Testament, and ends with the story of Jesus and his message of redemption and forgiveness and is called The New Testament.

About 1,400 years ago, there was another significant cultural shift, this time, in different part of the Middle East. This was when a relatively mediocre merchant married an older woman who had inherited the wealth of her dead husband. His name was Muhammad (the mediocre merchant, not the dead husband) and he started getting messages from God and visitations from the Arch Angel Gabriel. He created yet another monotheistic belief system, Islam, and its own accompanying religious text, the Qur’an.

And this is where there is a massive conceptual difference between the Torah, The Bible and the Qur’an. Even though all three talk about the same God, only Muhammad declared himself the final and ultimate prophet. Only the Qur’an declares itself as the final and ultimate word of God.

And so, when the Torah talks about crimes and sins and punishment, Jews can look at their scripture and understand its historical context. They can understand that they are now living in the 21st century and that their religion has evolved in the last three thousand years. When Christians look at their Bible, they see that its over-riding message is about redemption and forgiveness and, they too, can understand its historical context. Indeed, scholars (both believers and non-believers) have poured over its contents, and continue to pour over its contents, and tried to understand and interpret it. That’s both The Old Testament (ie the Torah) and The New Testament by the way.

Because, by their very nature, both the Torah and The Bible allow them to do so.

Not so with the Qur’an. The Qur’an is the final voice of Allah as spoken through the mouth of his final prophet Muhammad. There is no historical context permitted. Therefore, when the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, Daesh and all of the other Islamic fundamentalist groups, commit the atrocities that they routinely commit, they are not being criminals and they are being Muslims. Muslims as laid out in the dictates of their prophet and their religious text.

Finally, we are told over and over again that Islam is the religion of peace. And yet, of all of the five great religions in the world today, it’s only in Muhammad that we see a founder who has gone to war, led armies and personally benefited from the spoils of war. Yet another reason why Daesh & Co are indeed Muslims, they are directly following in the steps of their founding father.

@room101 Thank you for sharing this, but I don't think you read the Bible carefully, the prophet Muhammad was the only prophet who went to war? I understand that you used the word "founder", but what does it refer to?

The Quran doesn't have historical context? I previously commented on each verse you mentioned with the its historical context. If you want to associate each group you listed to Islam, then it proves that you never studied the Quran, because the Quran teaches very clearly that killing innocents is totally forbidden and it's one of the top sins in Islam.

Islam is the only system that has strict war ethics, which you could never find, especially in wars of today. If killing civilians, unarmed men, children, women, elders, men of religion, and anyone who is inside their homes is totally forbidden in Islam, how do you claim that what those groups doing is coming from the teachings of the Quran?

Spoils of war were taken as part of the war politics of that time, and it's given mainly to the poor and needy of society. The Islamic political system is perfect if it's applied correctly. It actually could solve a lot of our problems today.

The verses that you claim that it only talks about non-Muslims is actually talking about the enemies of Muslims at that times, the ones that Muslims had to go to war with, how do you expect them to be Muslims? Makes sense?

@Madeleine Explain Salman Rushdie. The muslims were trying to kill him and he had to go into hiding. He was an innocent man that wrote a book.

@bigjohndl I don't know if he should be killed, but I don't see him innocent, he wrote a book that was insulting to many people. Would you call someone who writes a book to support slavery of black people an innocent?