I don’t think God Exists!!! Do You?

@Elessar God could not have created a universe with free will and no universe simply because that is beyond logic. To be free to love and go good, one requires the choice to hate and be evil. We can't fully understand but God is so wise, so complex, so above our ways that He can see EVERYTHING can can be, should, must be, must not be. He allows us our free will and He waits for true justice so that as many as possible will have the chance to be saved from sin and live eternally with Him. If He wiped out evil, He'd wipe out most of the planet by the terms of the Law and of Perfect Justice.

Apart from all of that, there is just too much evidence that He is real and that He is good. We can't know or understand everything but we can know 100% that He is good and that He loves us.

@SW-User You're specifically in the bottom-center block. Trust me, this paradox is older than Christianity itself (before being readapted in the form you see above) and in over two thousand years no one managed to solve it.

And no, there is no such proof.

@Elessar Yes there is proof. The universe itself has to come from somewhere, just for example. Nothing times nobody does not equal everything. Also there is historical evidence that Jesus existed and did everything the Bible claims. Many documents talk about Jesus the "wonder worker" or "sorcerer" or whatever. This man was historically crucified and yet an entire movement came up around Him...people suffering and dying for an executed man they claim to be alive now. People don't die for something they know isn't true, not that many people. That's only just a tiny example of the evidence for God.

Also I fail to see how I align with "Then why didn't He?". I at least tried to explain it.

@SW-User [quote]The universe itself has to come from somewhere, just for example[/quote]
That's not proof at all. Why your religion then and not, I dunno, Zeus and the Olympus deities?

[quote]Also there is historical evidence that Jesus existed and did everything the Bible claims[/quote]
No historical evidence of anyone multiplying fishes and bread. If you have, please link it here (and it better be from a peer-reviewed academic source, not some weird blog).

[quote]Many documents talk about Jesus the "wonder worker" or "sorcerer" or whatever[/quote]
Many crazy folks even nowadays are referred to as with those names, especially when they self-label so.

[quote]This man was historically crucified and yet an entire movement came up around Him. People don't die for something they know isn't true, not that many people.[/quote]
Just like a lot of other martyrs?

No, it's not evidence at all. Christians are a minority of the total world population, and coincidentally (compatibly with any other religion existing or ever existed on this world) new Christians are born where other Christians live/preach.

@Elessar It is easy to discount.. I did it years ago.. It assumes too much and comes from a universe centric and even creation centric Point of view..

@Elessar I never said Creation was specific proof of Jesus, just a Creator. Use some critical thinking...

I meant Josephius and other ancient historians talk about Him and His wonders. Maybe not every specific miracle but they get the general picture right.

Not at all like other martyrs. What other martyr had a very public death, their tomb was a known location, and yet within a few months we had thousands of people willing to die because Jesus was alive? That is really extreme and history offers no evidence to the contrary.

@SW-User [quote]Apart from all of that, there is just too much evidence that He is real [/quote]
Where? Please don't just say all around you, others can say, with equal validity, that their gods created everything.

[sep]
[quote]The universe itself has to come from somewhere, just for example. [/quote]
So where did you god come from? As you say, it had to come from somewhere.

@SW-User Are we speaking of the Christian "God" or are we speaking of a generic creator? Or both? I assume we're speaking of the former, in particular from the way you structured your reply:
[quote]The universe itself has to come from somewhere, just for example. Nothing times nobody does not equal everything. [b]Also[/b] there is historical evidence that Jesus existed and did everything the Bible claims.[/quote] which logically implies my conclusion. If you intended to change subjects amid the period, you should've better specified it, because from your propositions it's not clear, especially with that "Also" before the latest where the subject is Jesus.

In any case I don't see how a generic creator (assuming it was an acceptable hypothesis, which isn't even guaranteed) would support the existence of one specific deity.

[quote]I meant Josephius and other ancient historians talk about Him and His wonders. Maybe not every specific miracle but they get the general picture right.[/quote]
Yeah, as I expected.

[quote]Not at all like other martyrs. What other martyr had a very public death, their tomb was a known location, and yet within a few months we had thousands of people willing to die because Jesus was alive? [/quote]
And how is that proof of existence? People believe to whatever thing that is shown down they're throat, there are *hordes* probably even larger than the entire pre-Constantine Christian population, who believe in snake oil and the lamest conspiracy theories *nowadays*, when everyone can potentially check online if something is true or not and almost everyone receives at least a basic level of education, imagine back then.

@Adstar

@Elessar I was going to say something similar. History is full of masses of people martyring themselves for a false yet believed in cause. The renaissance in conspiracies supports that. But I didn't want to get into a religious argument. Lol

@canusernamebemyusername By this logic George Floyd is going to be the next messiah, he perfectly fits the "[i]what other martyr had a very public death, their tomb was a known location, and yet within a few months we had thousands of people willing to die because he was alive[/i]" definition (judging by the images I've seen of masses fighting back tear gas attacks and stuff with leafblowers), lol

@Elessar [quote]And how is that proof of existence? People believe to whatever thing that is shown down they're throat, there are *hordes* probably even larger than the entire pre-Constantine Christian population, who believe in snake oil and the lamest conspiracy theories *nowadays*, when everyone can potentially check online if something is true or not and almost everyone receives at least a basic level of education, imagine back then.[/quote]

I think you fail to grasp just how radical and countercultural the Christian movement was. Jews were VERY proud of their heritage and traditions and blasphemy was potentially deadly. In spite of this, thousands very quickly starting going against tradition and culture in worship of a "dead" Man. This was not a typical cult or movement.

@Elessar Anyway, I deeply hope that you reconsider and put your faith in Jesus, for your own sake. Other than that, I'm not sure there's more to say at the moment. If you truly want to know more, Lee Strobel's "Case For..." books are excellent. "The Case for Faith" is right up the alley of this discussion.

@SW-User [quote]Lee Strobel's "Case For..." books are excellent. [/quote]
ROFLMAO!!!! 😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣 The guy is just a propagandist, OK for a laugh but not to be taken seriously.

@NortiusMaximus And what makes you say that? It's well researched with documented expert interviews. What makes it propaganda? The fact that it's in favor of the Bible? If it's that reason alone, that's hardly fair.

@SW-User [quote]Jews were VERY proud of their heritage and traditions and blasphemy was potentially deadly. In spite of this, thousands very quickly starting going against tradition and culture in worship of a "dead" Man. This was not a typical cult or movement.[/quote]
Yes, it's called religious brainwashing, people blew themselves up even in recent times in the name of it.

[quote]Anyway, I deeply hope that you reconsider and put your faith in Jesus, for your own sake. [/quote]
There aren't the elements required for me to believe, consistency and absence of paradox in what's being claimed/preached, primarily.

And, as a plus:

[i]Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.[/i]

@Elessar So many so quickly and over Someone who was very obviously (at least to the rational mind) dead? Sounds rather extreme. This isn't people simply being fed stories...this is hordes of people uprooting their entire lives over someone who's execution was extremely public and well known (the road to Emmaus incident implies all of Jerusalem was talking about it) and these people said He was alive. Something more than brainwashing probably accounts for that.

@Elessar [quote]Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.[/quote]

How about "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?" Christianity isn't about us pleasing any gods through virtue or our own work. It's His grace, pure and simple.

@SW-User Oh yep, you'd be surprised to realise how quickly a cult can be set up. Just look even at modern day political movements operated like cults, in less than 5 years they can potentially get voted by half the population of a country, starting from zero.

@Elessar I just don't think you are quite thinking about this deeply enough. The situation is quite unique. Anyway, arguing like this probably (sadly) isn't going to accomplish anything. Have a nice evening

@SW-User In any case Christianity mandates devotion, forgiveness comes necessarily through devotion and sacraments, that quote is perfectly applicable to any and every religion, pre-Christian ones, Christian and post-Christian ones.

@SW-User [quote] I just don't think you are quite thinking about this deeply enough. The situation is quite unique. Anyway, arguing like this probably (sadly) isn't going to accomplish anything. Have a nice evening[/quote] Nah man, I respect your view but I don't share it. The uniqueness of a situation doesn't necessarily imply that any cause attributed to it is automatically proven.

Have a nice evening as well.

@Elessar Nope. As far as Biblical Christianity goes forgiveness comes through believing and trusting God..

@Adstar I know how it works, I was raised in it. But as I said

[i]Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.[/i]