Is Environmentalism a religion or a political group?
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22-25, F
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pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
It becomes religious. People have the need for a grand narrative, an in group and meaning and put that into politics or environmentalism if they lack a deistic belief.
And there are definite parallels. Greta Thurnberg is a secular child saint. But rather than ‘the Virgin Mary will turn up in the sky soon, trust me!’ The child saint claim we all know, with Greta it’s ‘there’s going to be a climate catastrophe soon, trust me!’ Both involve some sort of apocalyptic vision involving the sky/atmosphere and requiring devotion to a cult of thought.
And there are definite parallels. Greta Thurnberg is a secular child saint. But rather than ‘the Virgin Mary will turn up in the sky soon, trust me!’ The child saint claim we all know, with Greta it’s ‘there’s going to be a climate catastrophe soon, trust me!’ Both involve some sort of apocalyptic vision involving the sky/atmosphere and requiring devotion to a cult of thought.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@pianoplayingsteve Interesting point.
It should not be like that but I agree that some at least, both environmentalists and their opponents, do behave in cult-like ways that makes serious discussion of a serious topic, with them very difficult.
I have the impression too, that on both sides, the more dogmatic, the less knowledgeable; and this is a common feature of cult mentality.
It should not be like that but I agree that some at least, both environmentalists and their opponents, do behave in cult-like ways that makes serious discussion of a serious topic, with them very difficult.
I have the impression too, that on both sides, the more dogmatic, the less knowledgeable; and this is a common feature of cult mentality.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@ArishMell yeah it does work both ways. So she was a secular example, I can give a religious example I had on here just today. Had some Christian talk about how the Freemasons and Illuminati were evil and working together so told her a bit about how the actual Illuminati were scientists who did research banned by the church hence ‘illuminating’ the truth’ and then demonised for doing so. And how the free masons were a group of great architects who initially worked for Solomon and kept their secrets to themselves who were again demonised by the church as they became wealthy. I then concluded explaining that the church did the propaganda technique of turning all the groups that their propaganda was competing with into one big group working to conspire against the church. Ideologues do this in response to the fact that many groups would disagree with them, so in order to make it seem like they are actually right and aren’t getting people disagreeing all over the place, they create a narrative about how all these groups have high up members engaging in a joint conspiracy against them.
She wasn’t pleased. Told me she disagreed but wouldn’t elaborate lol
She wasn’t pleased. Told me she disagreed but wouldn’t elaborate lol
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@pianoplayingsteve Aha! You caught her out!
It's been a while since I read about them, but I think the true Illuminati didn't even last very long, historically; as the Church slowly dragged itself up-to-date (for its times) and the need for such a society evaporated.
The Freemasons themselves might claim ancestry in King Solomon's time, but really that's romanticising themselves. They developed originally as a form of Mediaeval trade-guild; when enormous churches and fortified homes began to appear.
Those guilds may have been rather self-protective and exclusive for commercial reasons. Nevertheless the Free Masons were certainly great architects, before that word was coined to describe a person who designs a building rather than being one of the craftsmen physically putting it together.
It's been a while since I read about them, but I think the true Illuminati didn't even last very long, historically; as the Church slowly dragged itself up-to-date (for its times) and the need for such a society evaporated.
The Freemasons themselves might claim ancestry in King Solomon's time, but really that's romanticising themselves. They developed originally as a form of Mediaeval trade-guild; when enormous churches and fortified homes began to appear.
Those guilds may have been rather self-protective and exclusive for commercial reasons. Nevertheless the Free Masons were certainly great architects, before that word was coined to describe a person who designs a building rather than being one of the craftsmen physically putting it together.
pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M
@ArishMell What I find interesting to this day, atheist and christian conspiracy theorists alike use the term "illuminati" to describe a group who control the world, a group of scientists haha
Hmm i remember watching a documentary on the free masons years ago that I cant find, where there was some sort of murder in Solomon's temple and now a ritual they have is mimicking this murder. Who know what really is true where most people base their understanding on narratives which they push as truth for ideological reasons, rather than what's actually true.
Hmm i remember watching a documentary on the free masons years ago that I cant find, where there was some sort of murder in Solomon's temple and now a ritual they have is mimicking this murder. Who know what really is true where most people base their understanding on narratives which they push as truth for ideological reasons, rather than what's actually true.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@pianoplayingsteve Ignorance goes a long way, especially when it encourages the gullible to fall for lurid fiction rather than plain fact.
I have never read the novel and I forget its author, but I have a horrible suspicion that some think The Illuminati is a historical treatise, not realising it is merely a fantasy written to entertain the reader and pay the author's bills!
The mid-19C Scots historian and journalist Charles MacKay looked into this trait, exposing many from the alchemists onwards, in his book Extraordinary Popular Delusions - and The Madness of Crowds. Its 19C prose style does not make it an easy read; but it is not difficult to recognise modern parallels with some of the historical "delusions" he chronicles.
One intriguing point though that he shows, is that even in their time, some people did see through the delusions and madness that gripped so many of their contemporaries.
'
The Freemasons? Their reputation seems mainly from their being simply a very old and rather exclusive club: once a trade-guild that may or may not have had too-close professional relationships with their main customer (the Church), but have long since just a social-club. It might or might not still have arcane but basically harmless rites and traditions; but is nevertheless primarily just a members' social club that does also raise a lot of money for charity.
People accuse it of a venue for shady deals between, for example, property-developers and council officers; but let's face it, you can accuse any high-subscription sports or social club of that; and there are far more swanky golf, tennis and sailing -clubs than there are Masonic lodges!
Am I a member of clubs that would not have me even if I could afford them? No, though I have known one or two who were Masons, and some in costly sports clubs outside of my interests anyway.
I have never read the novel and I forget its author, but I have a horrible suspicion that some think The Illuminati is a historical treatise, not realising it is merely a fantasy written to entertain the reader and pay the author's bills!
The mid-19C Scots historian and journalist Charles MacKay looked into this trait, exposing many from the alchemists onwards, in his book Extraordinary Popular Delusions - and The Madness of Crowds. Its 19C prose style does not make it an easy read; but it is not difficult to recognise modern parallels with some of the historical "delusions" he chronicles.
One intriguing point though that he shows, is that even in their time, some people did see through the delusions and madness that gripped so many of their contemporaries.
'
The Freemasons? Their reputation seems mainly from their being simply a very old and rather exclusive club: once a trade-guild that may or may not have had too-close professional relationships with their main customer (the Church), but have long since just a social-club. It might or might not still have arcane but basically harmless rites and traditions; but is nevertheless primarily just a members' social club that does also raise a lot of money for charity.
People accuse it of a venue for shady deals between, for example, property-developers and council officers; but let's face it, you can accuse any high-subscription sports or social club of that; and there are far more swanky golf, tennis and sailing -clubs than there are Masonic lodges!
Am I a member of clubs that would not have me even if I could afford them? No, though I have known one or two who were Masons, and some in costly sports clubs outside of my interests anyway.