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I think the basic test for whether or not someone's morally upright and mature is if they can roundly condemn bad actions of people with basic

similarities to them without apologizing or weaseling out of it.

Every atheist should be able to roundly condemn the purges of religious people in Soviet Russia and other Communist countries.
Every Christian should be able to roundly condemn the colonialist policies of numerous European countries.
Every Muslim should be able to roundly condemn the campaigns against homosexuals and apostates in numerous Islamist countries.
Every Jew should be able to roundly condemn the Israeli campaign against Palestinians.
Every Buddhist should be able to roundly condemn Myanmar's violence against Muslims.
Every Hindu should be able to roundly condemn Hindu nationalists in India and the violence and discrimination they've inflicted against Muslims.

And every one of them should do so without pulling out a No True Scotsman fallacy or similar argument without a strong basic in fact because different people practice religion or nonreligion in radically different ways. And every one of them should be able to do so without apologizing or show even a pinch of remorse because they should understand that we are not responsible for the actions of others, even if those others have something in common with them.

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Psycho · 26-30, M

What if it is part of a person's moral code to believe homosexuality is wrong and that is their responsibility to fight against it? They are supposed to adhere to your belief that we should follow a universal code of morality and sacrifice parts of their holy book that they really believe in?

Morals vary, there is no right and wrong objectively it is a concept, which is dependent on things such as personal beliefs, laws, religion, influence etc.

In the modern day we are diversifying and mixing cultures which inevitably leads to conflict.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho If someone believes that it's acceptable to "fight against" morality, then my personal morals say that they're a douchebag and I should fight against them.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins I think you are missing the point, where do I say "fighting against morality"?

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho Umm I typed that wrong. It shoulda said "fighting against homosexuality," my bad.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Okay now we are getting somewhere, so I'm assuming because you are born in a place where homosexuality is widely accepted, it is taught that is okay and you maybe homosexual or bisexual you believe it is morally acceptable however.. that is your moral code, another person's may vary.

So a Muslim in a Muslim dominated country is likely to be taught that homosexuality is evil, they are likely to see their peers and family react to homosexuality as your society does against paedophilia. So they have different morals, what they believe is right and wrong is different, which is where the conflict starts.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho I wasn't, actually; where I was raised, homosexuality was viewed as disgusting and evil. I rejected that cultural understanding because homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Okay so for whatever reason you saw it a different way and your moral code is to believe that homosexuality doesn't harm anyone but where you was raised the people believed that homosexuality was wrong.

They believe that they are doing right when they look at homosexuality with disgust, they think homosexuals do cause harm in some way or another so they feel justified in discriminating homosexuality because their belief is that is wrong. They have a different concept of what is right and what is wrong.

So really you can't accept another person's religion or beliefs if they are harmful or in conflict with your own.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho That's correct, I don't accept other people's religious beliefs if they are harmful.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Okay so therefore you do not accept most forms of Christianity, Islam, not sure about Hinduism but I'm sure they probably have some beliefs you'd find harmful to your way of life.

It's not that these people are not adhering to their own beliefs they are just not adhering to yours.

People not following their own moral code though is a different matter, that is called being weak willed or hypocritical.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho I do not accept any ideology that hates or looks down upon people for being what they are, or otherwise de-legitimizes harmless human characteristics in any way. And yes, this includes many variants of the religions you specified, but not all.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins So there you go we reach a conclusion you don't accept or agree with the morals of people who follow their own religions if it is harmful to your beliefs and your way of life. Which equates to not accepting most forms of religions, not accepting a significant number of the population of Russians, the continent of Asia and Africa. Don't feel bad though that is how morals work.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho Not just my beliefs and my way of life, but the ways of life of many other people. I'm really not the primary victim of the ideologies we're talking about.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Any belief could be harmful to any demographic of peoples lives. Humans are diverse.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho In principle, yes, but not in any meaningful way. Like you can easily find someone somewhere who's offended by me saying the Earth is round, not similar at all to a gay couple not being allowed to marry thanks to a homophobic majority religious philosophy.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Not meaningful to you but to that flat Earther it might be. They think there is some massive conspiracy around science, they are labelled as idiots probably avoided by people.

So how meaningful a belief is really varies between the believer and non believer.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho You've got to be one delusional motherfucker to believe that merely contradicting someone's opinion is equivalent to delegitimizing someone's very existence.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins Well yeah a lot of Muslims are deluded because many hardcore one's would cut your head off if they even knew you are gay but in their mind what they are doing is right and makes sense.

I'm not against religion, I just acknowledge people's beliefs are different from mine and I will defend myself and my own values over others whether they feel marginalised or not.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho I also acknowledge that people's beliefs are different from mine, but I don't view other people's ideals as an excuse for shitty behavior & rhetoric.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins See here's where we differ, these people probably believe your behaviour is shitty, they think you are evil because who you are attracted to, your behaviour is unjustified in their books.

I think everyone has their own beliefs and their behaviour is often aligned with their complex views on reality. I accept that they different but I'm all for wiping them off the face of the Earth if they threaten my already heavily compromised way of life.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho I don't see how that's at all different from what I believe.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins From how I'm seeing it you are all for making the World inclusive for these people because they are vulnerable or discriminated against but you think that all these groups should adhere or adapt to your morals. That
doesn't happen. I don't want the World to be all the same.

I accept that people have different beliefs and I encourage them even if they are harmful to mine but I will fight them if they ever come to my doorstep.

We are in a big greedy ideological war between cultures and nations, China wants to rule the World, America wants to rule the World, Russia wants to rule the World. What if one ideology prevails? We all act the same, are scared to express any difference.. that is awful.

We need diversity even if the other person's way of life is harmful to our own.

If it is us Vs the Muslims I will fight the Muslims, me Vs the gays I will fight the gays even though I am bisexual and have no problem with them.

People use groups that have been victimised to push their ideologies and I hate that.

BlueVeins · 22-25

@Psycho I don't want the world to be the same; I just don't want people to be victimized. Accepting people with bigoted beliefs until they actually are "on your doorstep" is kinda shitty because they're on someone's doorstep; even if you personally don't have to put up with Islamic fundamentalists, for example, there's gonna be some gay people living around them. By failing to speak out against them, you're indirectly screwing up the gay people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Psycho · 26-30, M

@BlueVeins At the same time there are activists ruining people's lives by putting out smear campaigns, police being injured for what a few bad eggs do. Their is conflict everywhere.

People will always be victimised for one reason or another, I'll look after myself and those on my path but I can't fix the world. Because people of all creeds can have shitty harmful beliefs.