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I'm finding the discussion about the merits or otherwise of cp as a motivator for striving for one's potential very interesting. I've often had wavering thoughts about this myself and am still undecided.
I don't recall my father ever punishing me for being lax with school work, but I definitely remember how I would get a strong sense of his disappointment. That would make me feel 'bad', ashamed of myself and I would try harder to redeem myself. There were times I felt I would feel better within myself if dad did give me hiding.
School was different. I went to a private school and private schools survive or die based on their reputation and their academic achievements. The requirement to strive for one's best was very powerful. Unlike what I have read from many others, there was no set routine that included cp for poor test scores or the like. It seemed to me to be more adhoc and at the discretion of the teacher.
Certainly, things like failing to complete homework or assignments without proper reason could see a boy bending for a few strokes of the cane. When I was in 4th year high (about 16yo), I messed up a due date for a big assignment in history. I realised and admitted it to the history master who wasn't impressed. I was given a weekend extension on the assignment and 500 lines. The lines were not to his standard (not quite 500 and several mistakes). I got 8 of the cane; 4 for the unsatisfactory punishment exercise and 4 for my original 'crime' of late assignment.
In the end, I tend to agree with Chikki that in times past, there was a clear path for preparing boys to be men and ready for the cruel world beyond the sheltered school days. It may have been a bit harsh based on today's standards, but quite wrong to place the standards of today on the norms of the past.
I consider I have been successful in life. Whether that is because of or, in spite of the cp I received growing up, is something I cannot say for sure. I can say that in my opinion, getting my bum soundly whacked at home and school didn't make me resentful or angry or anything of a negative nature.
I don't recall my father ever punishing me for being lax with school work, but I definitely remember how I would get a strong sense of his disappointment. That would make me feel 'bad', ashamed of myself and I would try harder to redeem myself. There were times I felt I would feel better within myself if dad did give me hiding.
School was different. I went to a private school and private schools survive or die based on their reputation and their academic achievements. The requirement to strive for one's best was very powerful. Unlike what I have read from many others, there was no set routine that included cp for poor test scores or the like. It seemed to me to be more adhoc and at the discretion of the teacher.
Certainly, things like failing to complete homework or assignments without proper reason could see a boy bending for a few strokes of the cane. When I was in 4th year high (about 16yo), I messed up a due date for a big assignment in history. I realised and admitted it to the history master who wasn't impressed. I was given a weekend extension on the assignment and 500 lines. The lines were not to his standard (not quite 500 and several mistakes). I got 8 of the cane; 4 for the unsatisfactory punishment exercise and 4 for my original 'crime' of late assignment.
In the end, I tend to agree with Chikki that in times past, there was a clear path for preparing boys to be men and ready for the cruel world beyond the sheltered school days. It may have been a bit harsh based on today's standards, but quite wrong to place the standards of today on the norms of the past.
I consider I have been successful in life. Whether that is because of or, in spite of the cp I received growing up, is something I cannot say for sure. I can say that in my opinion, getting my bum soundly whacked at home and school didn't make me resentful or angry or anything of a negative nature.
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Fernie · F
@Caned4doz violence against children is unjustifiable ...now or then. Males are already prone to violent behavior..how is beating them preparing boys to be men? It teaches them to hurt others when they don't get their own way...lazy parenting..weak...unintelligent....lack of control...BULLYING. You and I are the same generation. I remember in high school...boys being taken out into the hall where they would have their heads banged against the metal lockers...criminal behavior on the part of the teachers...then and now
chikki · 70-79, M
@Fernie i think everybody would agree banging a boys head against a metal locker is criminal and has always been the case. You cannot compare this to the use of cp. It was not bullyng but enforcng rules that were for the benifit of the school community and to teach right from wrong. The whacking of boys did teach them to be men but not in the way you indicate. It taught them that their behaviour in school would not be tolerated and result in being sacked where as in school it resulted in a sore bottom. It taught them how to behave as adults....ie to be men.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz
Obviously punishing anyone, in any way, for poor results despite best efforts - due to lack of ability by either the pupil or the teacher, or both - is wrong now and never was right. And that applies whether the bully is a teacher or a parent - though it's noticeable from various posts on SW that at least most of the teachers were rather more self-controlled and careful than many parents.
Yes, obviously breaking school rules or neglecting to carry out set homework is wrong, and none of us suggests it should be left unpunished.
However, whilst accepting that we cannot really judge adults for their actions half a century ago by the standards we strive to uphold now, there seems to have been a widespread assumption that punishment should only ever have been physical.
It's certainly a strange way to teach a child to become an adult - hitting him or her with a weapon. Especially for specious "offences" that when looked back on objectively, may have been thought self-deleterious by elder-and-theoretically-betters, but didn't really harm even the "offender", let alone anyone else.
Obviously punishing anyone, in any way, for poor results despite best efforts - due to lack of ability by either the pupil or the teacher, or both - is wrong now and never was right. And that applies whether the bully is a teacher or a parent - though it's noticeable from various posts on SW that at least most of the teachers were rather more self-controlled and careful than many parents.
Yes, obviously breaking school rules or neglecting to carry out set homework is wrong, and none of us suggests it should be left unpunished.
However, whilst accepting that we cannot really judge adults for their actions half a century ago by the standards we strive to uphold now, there seems to have been a widespread assumption that punishment should only ever have been physical.
It's certainly a strange way to teach a child to become an adult - hitting him or her with a weapon. Especially for specious "offences" that when looked back on objectively, may have been thought self-deleterious by elder-and-theoretically-betters, but didn't really harm even the "offender", let alone anyone else.
Caned4doz · 61-69, M
@Fernie I agree that actions such as head banging against lockers was reprehensible and certainly not what I would consider reasonable punishment. It cannot however, in my opinion anyway, be put in the same category as reasonable and moderate cp.
For countless generations children have been raised with the threat and/or application of cp. Society as a whole has managed to drag itself out of the stone age and into the space age. Men landed on the moon when cp was still a normal and accepted method of punishment. I believe Neil Armstrong himself was spanked as a child and look where he ended up.
For sure there are examples of extremes and inappropriate use and abuse of cp, but on the whole lads got a temporarily sore and hot bottom with no lasting damage. We haven't all devolved into violent beasts.
Cp was rapidly quashed and I'm of the belief mainly for political reasons. Little thought given to what should replace it. We are left with each subsequent generation not having an appreciation of the principle of consequences.
For countless generations children have been raised with the threat and/or application of cp. Society as a whole has managed to drag itself out of the stone age and into the space age. Men landed on the moon when cp was still a normal and accepted method of punishment. I believe Neil Armstrong himself was spanked as a child and look where he ended up.
For sure there are examples of extremes and inappropriate use and abuse of cp, but on the whole lads got a temporarily sore and hot bottom with no lasting damage. We haven't all devolved into violent beasts.
Cp was rapidly quashed and I'm of the belief mainly for political reasons. Little thought given to what should replace it. We are left with each subsequent generation not having an appreciation of the principle of consequences.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz
I don't think the scene you paint in the last paragraph is as bad as you seem to think; but a good many children pick up bad behaviour from adults around them, family or not, by example and not because they haven't been beaten for anything and everything.
Surely what matters more is the discipline first - then the punishment for infringing that discipline, more than the method of punishment.
We might also remember that Britain was among the last Western European country to ban CP in schools - amid much impassioned debate including letter-writers to newspapers unwittingly revealing their dubious predilections.
The ban seems to have worked for those countries - but it's possible this is affected by different social attitudes too.
I think Scandinavian countries were among the first to ban it.
Even in America which likes we foreigners to think it the bee's-knees, but where SW implies beating children viciously with bits of wood and belts is a national past-time for parents who hate children, many states have banned CP in schools.
I don't think the scene you paint in the last paragraph is as bad as you seem to think; but a good many children pick up bad behaviour from adults around them, family or not, by example and not because they haven't been beaten for anything and everything.
Surely what matters more is the discipline first - then the punishment for infringing that discipline, more than the method of punishment.
We might also remember that Britain was among the last Western European country to ban CP in schools - amid much impassioned debate including letter-writers to newspapers unwittingly revealing their dubious predilections.
The ban seems to have worked for those countries - but it's possible this is affected by different social attitudes too.
I think Scandinavian countries were among the first to ban it.
Even in America which likes we foreigners to think it the bee's-knees, but where SW implies beating children viciously with bits of wood and belts is a national past-time for parents who hate children, many states have banned CP in schools.
chikki · 70-79, M
@ArishMell Many States in America have banned cp in their schools which was the paddle. However many do still use it and also at home the strap and paddle are often used. Interesting that its banned mostly in Europe but in Oriant and Arab countries it is still used and often in a more severe form.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz
I don't believe ANY form of punishment, physical or otherwise, is any use used, nor should be used, to "motivate" people.
It should stay as that - punishment for wrong-doing.
I see you do describe that as mainly your experience. Though that caning for mistakes in an already excessive imposition, and extra to that for the original offence, was absurd and cruel.
I don't believe ANY form of punishment, physical or otherwise, is any use used, nor should be used, to "motivate" people.
It should stay as that - punishment for wrong-doing.
I see you do describe that as mainly your experience. Though that caning for mistakes in an already excessive imposition, and extra to that for the original offence, was absurd and cruel.
Caned4doz · 61-69, M
@chikki @ArishMell I have a friend living in America who is a retired Principal and school District Superintendent. He tells me there are 19 states in the US where cp in schools is still lawful. However, within each state there are school districts and it is at the discretion of each district to decide whether cp is used in the schools within that district. Interestingly, the majority (not all) of those 19 states are southern states.
CP of itself is not a fix all solution to misbehaviour in children, but from my own perspective it was certainly a means that made one think twice and it also was a clear message of 'consequences'. Discipline and punishment are different things of course and it would be a far better thing if the rewards for doing right outweighed the rewards for doing wrong. Unfortunately, humans tends to be wired to flirt with danger and the thrill of doing the wrong thing often outweighs being good. I'm talking in the context of child/teen mindset here.
CP of itself is not a fix all solution to misbehaviour in children, but from my own perspective it was certainly a means that made one think twice and it also was a clear message of 'consequences'. Discipline and punishment are different things of course and it would be a far better thing if the rewards for doing right outweighed the rewards for doing wrong. Unfortunately, humans tends to be wired to flirt with danger and the thrill of doing the wrong thing often outweighs being good. I'm talking in the context of child/teen mindset here.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz
Thank you for those explanations.
I knew the different states of America have a lot of autonomy, but I didn't realise US school administration was as individual as district level.
Oh, I realise punishment was always a matter of consequences, but it has to be a deterrent to be effective, irrespective of its nature.
Its rarity in my schools makes me wonder if that made it more of a deterrent than if it had been frequent and gratuitous, by a strange mixture of dark mystique and being the "last-resort", or only for particularly serious offences. Generally, discipline was pretty good, and lines or detention were the main punishments.
Thank you for those explanations.
I knew the different states of America have a lot of autonomy, but I didn't realise US school administration was as individual as district level.
Oh, I realise punishment was always a matter of consequences, but it has to be a deterrent to be effective, irrespective of its nature.
Its rarity in my schools makes me wonder if that made it more of a deterrent than if it had been frequent and gratuitous, by a strange mixture of dark mystique and being the "last-resort", or only for particularly serious offences. Generally, discipline was pretty good, and lines or detention were the main punishments.
chikki · 70-79, M
@ArishMell Detention was never an option where i was deputy at A PRIVATE
school. We had day boys and boarders. Many of these came to school in the 1980's by public bus. These journeys took a good hour in a lot of cases. (pupils today would not do that) This would mean with just an hours detention it could be 18:30 before they got home...not veet pleasant on a cold dark winters night. It alsi caused disruption for parents that collected them by car if they were not able to do this until about 5:30 and then drive home.
school. We had day boys and boarders. Many of these came to school in the 1980's by public bus. These journeys took a good hour in a lot of cases. (pupils today would not do that) This would mean with just an hours detention it could be 18:30 before they got home...not veet pleasant on a cold dark winters night. It alsi caused disruption for parents that collected them by car if they were not able to do this until about 5:30 and then drive home.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@chikki
A good point. My schools were not very remote from towns, though a detention could still mean getting home late as you describe. Detentions were perhaps more effective for the pupil who would have stayed on that evening anyway for some after-school club or other.
I think in later years my school moved to lunch-break detention. I suppose it worked, since it meant sitting in some room carrying out some dull, pointless imposition or other.
Actually a lot of pupils in my part of the world do have long journeys, by living in rural villages served by lengthy and infrequent bus services. I used to see one when I was commuting, that collected some pupils at arranged way-side pick-up points as well as regular bus-stops, in open country miles from the school concerned.
A good point. My schools were not very remote from towns, though a detention could still mean getting home late as you describe. Detentions were perhaps more effective for the pupil who would have stayed on that evening anyway for some after-school club or other.
I think in later years my school moved to lunch-break detention. I suppose it worked, since it meant sitting in some room carrying out some dull, pointless imposition or other.
Actually a lot of pupils in my part of the world do have long journeys, by living in rural villages served by lengthy and infrequent bus services. I used to see one when I was commuting, that collected some pupils at arranged way-side pick-up points as well as regular bus-stops, in open country miles from the school concerned.
Caned4doz · 61-69, M
@ArishMell Despite the fact that I have had a life long fascination with cp, when I was about to be punished at school I was always wondering why I had done whatever crime I had committed and wished I hadn't. In that respect it was, for me, an effective punishment. Obviously in my case there were other forces at work in my subconscious that compelled me to continue with my cavalier ways.
That said, there would have been many more lads that feared cp and strived to avoid it. So again, there was the deterrent effect.
I can't say whether to what degree the rarity of cp at your school made it a greater deterrent. It seems logical to me that it would at least send a message that the one being punished had done something very serious to warrant the cp. it would be interesting to know how much alternative punishments were issued compared to a school that was more inclined to include cp, as that might be an indication of whether the overall standard of discipline was effective at your school.
That said, there would have been many more lads that feared cp and strived to avoid it. So again, there was the deterrent effect.
I can't say whether to what degree the rarity of cp at your school made it a greater deterrent. It seems logical to me that it would at least send a message that the one being punished had done something very serious to warrant the cp. it would be interesting to know how much alternative punishments were issued compared to a school that was more inclined to include cp, as that might be an indication of whether the overall standard of discipline was effective at your school.
chikki · 70-79, M
@ArishMell I have never been in favour of detention, due to the lateness of pupils getting home and the unfairness. I stress the unfairness from two points.
Firstly, on detention night a boy may not have anything else to do so it just makes him late home. Another boy may have something he really enjoys that night, such as football training and because he is late home has to miss it. Its a double punishment and is unfair.
Secondly, it results in after school activities being missed. No problem is a boy does not have a club, but if he does it not only punishes him a seconf time but the member of staff envolved. Many a time this has caused problems with school teams who have an important match to play after school but are missing players because some teacher has given a detention and will not change it. Causes great friction in the staff room and goes over a whole range of after school activites not just sport.
Firstly, on detention night a boy may not have anything else to do so it just makes him late home. Another boy may have something he really enjoys that night, such as football training and because he is late home has to miss it. Its a double punishment and is unfair.
Secondly, it results in after school activities being missed. No problem is a boy does not have a club, but if he does it not only punishes him a seconf time but the member of staff envolved. Many a time this has caused problems with school teams who have an important match to play after school but are missing players because some teacher has given a detention and will not change it. Causes great friction in the staff room and goes over a whole range of after school activites not just sport.
chikki · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz I think their are two aspects to cp,
It has to punish the offender and does so in two ways. Their is the wait before going to get the punishment. In those hours it does make the offender focus on what he has done backed by knowing that in a few hours or minutes he is going to feel the cane across his bottom. This really focuses him on what he has done and the consequences. Secondly of course is the sharp sting and pain he is going to feel as his bottom is caned. The two together make it effective.
The second part of cp is that it deters others. Word soon spreads about a boy due to be caned and gives a firm message to others that such conduct will not be tolerated. It deters more, if it cannot be seen going on thr offenders bottom., at least hearing the spine chilling THWAACK as the cane goes across the offenders bottom and may be his reaction to the sting as his bottom is hit. Also cane marks remain on the bottom for a few days and these will be seen by many in the showers at school. The sight of a cane marked bottom sends out a clear warning to others....it does deter/
It has to punish the offender and does so in two ways. Their is the wait before going to get the punishment. In those hours it does make the offender focus on what he has done backed by knowing that in a few hours or minutes he is going to feel the cane across his bottom. This really focuses him on what he has done and the consequences. Secondly of course is the sharp sting and pain he is going to feel as his bottom is caned. The two together make it effective.
The second part of cp is that it deters others. Word soon spreads about a boy due to be caned and gives a firm message to others that such conduct will not be tolerated. It deters more, if it cannot be seen going on thr offenders bottom., at least hearing the spine chilling THWAACK as the cane goes across the offenders bottom and may be his reaction to the sting as his bottom is hit. Also cane marks remain on the bottom for a few days and these will be seen by many in the showers at school. The sight of a cane marked bottom sends out a clear warning to others....it does deter/
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@chikki
I take your point - and I believe double punishment of any sort is totally out of order. I didn't realise detentions could cause friction among the staff!
We do see double, or perhaps, vengeful "punishments" even in adult, professional life, where someone has been cleared of an alleged offence at work, or has "blown the whistle" and been proven correct - but the company or organisation doesn't have the courage to admit its own flaws so takes action against the individual anyway.
Quite how school prepares anyone for a world which allows such behaviour, I don't know.
I take your point - and I believe double punishment of any sort is totally out of order. I didn't realise detentions could cause friction among the staff!
We do see double, or perhaps, vengeful "punishments" even in adult, professional life, where someone has been cleared of an alleged offence at work, or has "blown the whistle" and been proven correct - but the company or organisation doesn't have the courage to admit its own flaws so takes action against the individual anyway.
Quite how school prepares anyone for a world which allows such behaviour, I don't know.
Caned4doz · 61-69, M
@ArishMell The longest I had to wait for a punishment at school was from a Friday afternoon to the Monday morning. I was being goaded by another boy for most of the afternoon and it ended up with him challenging me to a fight after school. I didn't like fighting because I wasn't very good at it, but I also had pride and wasn't going to run away from the challenge. We went down to the back fence with the usual troop of onlookers. We had barely started when a prefect appeared. Our names and houses were taken and the prefect said he would be reporting us on Monday.
Fighting was a caning offence, no exceptions and a minimum of six strokes. I spent the whole weekend in anguish thinking about Monday. I even thought about making up an excuse to stay home, but that would have only delayed the inevitable. I was definitely subdued that weekend and to the point that my parents asked me what was wrong. I didn't tell them about the fight and what I was sure awaited me on the Monday; I didn't want to hear of dad's views.
Sure enough, on the Monday I and the other boy were instructed to report to the deputy Head and each got six of the best.
You will no doubt consider that an inhumane wait, and perhaps it was, but I look back on it now rather wistfully!
Fighting was a caning offence, no exceptions and a minimum of six strokes. I spent the whole weekend in anguish thinking about Monday. I even thought about making up an excuse to stay home, but that would have only delayed the inevitable. I was definitely subdued that weekend and to the point that my parents asked me what was wrong. I didn't tell them about the fight and what I was sure awaited me on the Monday; I didn't want to hear of dad's views.
Sure enough, on the Monday I and the other boy were instructed to report to the deputy Head and each got six of the best.
You will no doubt consider that an inhumane wait, and perhaps it was, but I look back on it now rather wistfully!
chikki · 70-79, M
@Caned4doz waits like this did occur and not very much can be done to prevent this. The wait did give you time to reflect and focus on what you had done. Surprise no look out was posted to spot teachers or prefects !!!
As a deputy i always found it a complete waste of time trying to find out who started it and if one boy was at fault more than the other. It also surprised me that nearly all schools punished fighting by 6 of the cane. Where i was deputy and at a few other schools it was common for those that edged on the fight to experiance 2 or 3 strokes of the cane as well...cetainly if it took place out of school and were in uniform
As a deputy i always found it a complete waste of time trying to find out who started it and if one boy was at fault more than the other. It also surprised me that nearly all schools punished fighting by 6 of the cane. Where i was deputy and at a few other schools it was common for those that edged on the fight to experiance 2 or 3 strokes of the cane as well...cetainly if it took place out of school and were in uniform
Caned4doz · 61-69, M
@chikki You're right; the waiting was often a matter of timing and coincidence. A look-out, now that would have been smart thinking, but the spectators were too interested in the goings on.
You're also right about the time wasted trying to establish fault or whatever. That never seemed to stop the interrogation though; what was the fight about, who started it and so on were typical questions. It was those times that the 'code' among schoolboys could be tested. In my experience, most boys refused to 'rat' on another boy, fearing the consequences in the school yard more than a few strokes of the cane.
You're also right about the time wasted trying to establish fault or whatever. That never seemed to stop the interrogation though; what was the fight about, who started it and so on were typical questions. It was those times that the 'code' among schoolboys could be tested. In my experience, most boys refused to 'rat' on another boy, fearing the consequences in the school yard more than a few strokes of the cane.
chikki · 70-79, M
It was never easy, more so if the bottom was bare, even for the worse behaved boys. Having been caned many times as a boy i knew just how much those strokes that i was about to land , or had laned, was going to hurt the boy. I had a rule. Prior to bending him over I talked to him on a personal level about the offence. Once bending over the chair i blocked out of my mind, as much as i could, whose bottom it was that i was about to whack. It was just another bottom, almost if you like that id not belong to anybody. It was a bottom to be whacked just as hard and no harder than all the others I had whacked in the past. This allowed me to do it fairly. This
method heped a great deal when it was one of my sons over the chaIR, a boy that was always in troube or the boy that was always god and jut made this one mistake. They all deserve to be treated fairly and each boy to have his bottom whacked with the saME FORCE AND NO NOTICE taken on crying. The severity of the punishment, ie the constant offender, was reflecyed in the number of whacks and not in how hard he was hit.
To work, cp has not only to be fair but to be seen as fair by all the boys. The boy in constant trpuble for something will accept that he is going to get more strokes than the boy who has not been in trouble before. Wha he will not accept is if both get the same and he has it harder.
method heped a great deal when it was one of my sons over the chaIR, a boy that was always in troube or the boy that was always god and jut made this one mistake. They all deserve to be treated fairly and each boy to have his bottom whacked with the saME FORCE AND NO NOTICE taken on crying. The severity of the punishment, ie the constant offender, was reflecyed in the number of whacks and not in how hard he was hit.
To work, cp has not only to be fair but to be seen as fair by all the boys. The boy in constant trpuble for something will accept that he is going to get more strokes than the boy who has not been in trouble before. Wha he will not accept is if both get the same and he has it harder.
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