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Heartlander · 80-89, M
Remembering from my Catholic upbringing, a marriage is a sacrament where the spouses themselves are the anointers and whoever else is there are purely witnesses to the event. And that includes the priest and the wedding party. So sure. However ... whoever controls the keys to the church may have ideas on who can and can't use the church and what protocols are required, so ask; and if you don't get an answer to your liking go to another church and ask there. But I can't imagining any priest or ministers I know saying you can't.
@Heartlander The catholic tradition of a best man originated as a consequence of people showing up and objecting to the marriage, by trying to kill the geoom and carry off the wife. The best man wasn't necessarily a friend, but rather the best mercenary for hire, expected to kill whoever shows up.
We've since resolved this problem by the asking if anyone has any reasons for why the marriage shouldn't be concluded. Less likely to result in a armed man lealing out of the bushes stabbing at the groom.
The best man was never part of the sacraments, just a pragmatic solution. Literally anyone can be the best man, and if the priest insists on tradition, have someone armed with a sword and shield from the local military base show up to be the best man, and have him submit his kill record to the priest to verify before proceeding. That's as traditional as it gets.
We've since resolved this problem by the asking if anyone has any reasons for why the marriage shouldn't be concluded. Less likely to result in a armed man lealing out of the bushes stabbing at the groom.
The best man was never part of the sacraments, just a pragmatic solution. Literally anyone can be the best man, and if the priest insists on tradition, have someone armed with a sword and shield from the local military base show up to be the best man, and have him submit his kill record to the priest to verify before proceeding. That's as traditional as it gets.
Heartlander · 80-89, M
@Dignaga "traditional" acting priest are becoming fewer and fewer, so I doubt if there would still be much pushback unless the couple pushes another Catholic hot button issue.
As I recall from peeking into my ancestral history that there was an issue of marriage legitimacy for the purpose of protecting legal heirs. Like when we tended to live in more isolated communities served by visiting priest, one role of the priest was to legitimize couples, and record the legal offsprings. I have some Spanish ancestors where such recordings of legitimacy by a priest was apparently very important, but I don't recall the necessity of witnesses. Like a priest's pronunciation or documenting that a couple was husband and wife in 1750 was enough?
:) I have to go back and check now :) I have an ancestor who was a Spanish officer who served under Galvez, so with good documentations of whatever church or legal proceedings.
As I recall from peeking into my ancestral history that there was an issue of marriage legitimacy for the purpose of protecting legal heirs. Like when we tended to live in more isolated communities served by visiting priest, one role of the priest was to legitimize couples, and record the legal offsprings. I have some Spanish ancestors where such recordings of legitimacy by a priest was apparently very important, but I don't recall the necessity of witnesses. Like a priest's pronunciation or documenting that a couple was husband and wife in 1750 was enough?
:) I have to go back and check now :) I have an ancestor who was a Spanish officer who served under Galvez, so with good documentations of whatever church or legal proceedings.
@Heartlander If you want to get really technical, the church recognizes the legitimacy of even pagan marriages, as long as they are monogamous and between man and wife. All the Catholic/Orthodox Church did was accept Emperor Augustus' Marriage reforms. Prior to this, Jews could be polygamous. They even made exceptions later on for Charlemagne's many wives (all legitimate, you don't tell Charlemagne otherwise).
I'm a big Arius Didymus buff, and he appears to of been the court philosopher for Emperor Augustus, and presented positions on both the Stoic and Peripatetic positions on running a house hold (via man and wife), but I can't really say how much influence he had over Augustus in this area on marriage reform. He had enough influence though to tell Octavian/Augustus to have Julius Caesar's son killed. So he must of had some influence. We just got wpitomes of generic (though very indepth and now unique) textbooks on older philosophers from him.
I'm a big Arius Didymus buff, and he appears to of been the court philosopher for Emperor Augustus, and presented positions on both the Stoic and Peripatetic positions on running a house hold (via man and wife), but I can't really say how much influence he had over Augustus in this area on marriage reform. He had enough influence though to tell Octavian/Augustus to have Julius Caesar's son killed. So he must of had some influence. We just got wpitomes of generic (though very indepth and now unique) textbooks on older philosophers from him.
Heartlander · 80-89, M
@Dignaga Oh noooooo ... you just gave me reasons to go back and make up for all those church history classes I slept through.
I just reread the Nicene Creed. Nowhere in there did it mention marriage or the number of spouses one can or can't have. I guess all those rules got filled in later.
I just reread the Nicene Creed. Nowhere in there did it mention marriage or the number of spouses one can or can't have. I guess all those rules got filled in later.
@Heartlander I never read the book, but kept coming across this book in a used bookstore advocating the catholic church allow polygamy in the African priesthood. Most of the old holy sees of the ancient church, such as the Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox, still allow priests to marry, and in Africa they never had rules of strict monogamy. Their society was culturally leaning more towards polygamy.
So there is a argument to be made. Augustus forced it to stablize the family lines of the aristocracy in the roman principate, but we already had concepts of filial devotion and deep ethical marriage bonds since the republican era with The Rape of Lucretia. These two aspects germinated through the roman era and became the foundation of feudalism. Africa did NOT have this outside of Roman and Berber areas.
But monogamy is still best when you are deeply impoverished and starving. And Africa has alot of that too. It was a philosophy as much for estate and household management as it was for love. It's the basis for the modern concept of property.
So there is a argument to be made. Augustus forced it to stablize the family lines of the aristocracy in the roman principate, but we already had concepts of filial devotion and deep ethical marriage bonds since the republican era with The Rape of Lucretia. These two aspects germinated through the roman era and became the foundation of feudalism. Africa did NOT have this outside of Roman and Berber areas.
But monogamy is still best when you are deeply impoverished and starving. And Africa has alot of that too. It was a philosophy as much for estate and household management as it was for love. It's the basis for the modern concept of property.
Heartlander · 80-89, M
@Dignaga I attended a "lives of the saints" type discussion group our church had facilitated a few years back. Actually we did a few different discussion groups and it was really insightful until suspended by COVID.
In the saints group we went through a number of saints considered the great influencers of Catholicism. They practically all had rebellious or controversial episodes or parts of their lives. One or two were excommunicated for their beliefs or political connections, and returned to graces after the clergy or political leadership transitioned. A few were married, or had mistresses and children. Both the church and the political leadership molded one another.
In the saints group we went through a number of saints considered the great influencers of Catholicism. They practically all had rebellious or controversial episodes or parts of their lives. One or two were excommunicated for their beliefs or political connections, and returned to graces after the clergy or political leadership transitioned. A few were married, or had mistresses and children. Both the church and the political leadership molded one another.