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SW-User
@ArishMell You guys are quick to criticize us and assume that what the media says about guns in our country is correct. Gun violence here is not as widespread as the headlines would have you guys over there believe either. Yes, many of us own guns, no, we don't go on mass shooting sprees every day. There's a lot of gun owners in my State, I have lived here since 1996.....never heard of or seen a school shooting.
I posted that article to illustrate two things 1). Our country isn't perfect, but neither is yours.....or any other country on this planet and 2). I posted it to show that getting rid of guns doesn't stop murder or crime from happening. People are the problem, not the inanimate objects they wield. If our respective governments could see that, then maybe something more effective could be done.
I posted that article to illustrate two things 1). Our country isn't perfect, but neither is yours.....or any other country on this planet and 2). I posted it to show that getting rid of guns doesn't stop murder or crime from happening. People are the problem, not the inanimate objects they wield. If our respective governments could see that, then maybe something more effective could be done.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User No-one seriously thinks that the danger lies in the objects, rather than the users, in which the problem is temptation and ease of access.
What puzzles many of we non-Americans is that guns seem almost a must-have object with few if any controls, in America.
That view is reinforced as much by the arguments you have over gun-ownership as by news reports of gratuitous murders; and by social-media "pen-friends" saying street-shootings, often between rival gangs, are almost routine.
Reporting any bad news tends to take precedance over good, wherever you are; except perhaps in a totalitarian state where all internal affairs are always "good" and external affairs usually "bad".
The difficulty too, with many multiple killings is that the gun-man rarely survives so we can't know what if any motive he had.
'
We do know that the vast majority of Americans are law-abiding whether they own guns; and that violent criminals any country won't obey any firearms laws any more than they obey any others.
So I looked into it a while ago; in response to a Californian on a slightly forum similar to this but generally less febrile. I do not know if she and her husband own a gun but she was commeting despairingly on the many random non-'terrorist' killings in the USA - events extremely rare in most other developed countries.
I define 'terrorism' as usual, as having specific political ends; and both the USA and UK have lists of certain physical or on-line organisations that are or may be terrorist. Those inciting hatred and pshycal violence can be banned in the UK. One such was possibly intended for the USA and looked American, but was traced to Russia.
So....
I found the level of gun-ownership by American households, surveyed within the USA, as about half - but without differentiating between a single pistol and a private arsenal.
I looked at the NRA - prominent in your national debates on gun control and tending to be seen abroad as huge and very powerful. I was surprised to find it far smaller than it seems. I forget the figures but its membership is a fraction of that households number, and a very small proportion of the adult American population generally. Its voice comes from, as I think its web-site revealed, that despite its modest subscription it can afford to support sympathetic politicians' campaigns.
[i]I will believe you[/i] if say the NRA does not support or condone the criminal element, let alone the types who casually shoot school pupils in their classes. I am sure it does nothing of the sort, though its political voice might give some encouragment to violent non-members trying to justify themeselves.
Why so many guns in the US? Looking at it from outside, your arguments for and against seem heavily influenced by four factors. Two are romantic attachments: to a 'Wild West' hunting culture notorious for slaughtering wild animals irrespective of need; and to an amendment made to the Constitution before the nation could create proper Armed Services.
The others? Aside from agricultural pest control, land-management and self-defence against dangerous animals? Legitimate, controlled sport shooting; and simple fear of being attacked.
Sports shooting is found in many countries and in some, the arguments against shooting animals revolve around cruelty and enviromental matters.
The fear and self-defence motive is very difficult where the easy, supermarket-level availability of guns and ammunition in some States at least, may create a vicious circle. The [i]hazard[/i] of an armed robbery in your home exists especially where potential robbers can buy guns very easily. Fear prevents properly assessing the personal [i]risk[/i] but as it is just as easy to buy any sort of gun to defend your home, one feeds on the other.
The "survivalist" types may be an extreme manifestation of that, but I imagine they are a tiny minority.
The USA looks awash with weapons when seen from countries where legal gun-ownership is simply not very popular, is under very tight controls and is limited to sports, antique collection (of no-working weapons) and agriculture. A distorion, yes, but it comes from a relatively numerous high rate of murder, especially the high rate of random multiple shootings in schools and work-places, and your lively debates over gun laws.
'
The position in the UK?
Terrorists apart, whose more recent specimens have used bombs, vehicles and knives rather than guns...
Some criminals, particularly the drugs gangs, do use guns but most of their murders are among teenagers and young men, by stabbing because it is very difficult to obtain guns but easy to take a knife from the kitchen. Theirs is too, a circle of fear. Once embroiled in gangs these teenagers know someone similar might stab them so they feel safer by being potential killers too.
Our Police have specialist firearms officers - as we saw recently when one had to shoot a pet dog that had killed a child. (I don't know if this dog was of an illegal breed.) Otherwise the Police are not routinely armed as they are in the USA and many Eurpean countries - they do not want it, and there have been very few public calls for it.
There is no gun-owning tradition in Britain; very few people have ever handled a gun, outside of any farming, sporting or Services experiences. Most don't want to, either. Of all the many people I have know over the years I cannot think of more than two gun-owners. One a clay-pigeon shooter, the other owning few antiques useable only to the extent of demonstrating the flintlock.
Not only that, but calls for changes are usually for even tighter restrictions.
The last era for English men regularly to "bear arms" was Mediaeval, when it was the long-bow, not gun; and not by "right" but compulsory so armies could be raised easily!
####
A wry observation, told me by a friend:
Once, on holiday in America, he was invited to the home of a farming family. His hosts offered him the chance to try some of their twenty or so guns ("many have lots more!", he was told) on their private range. He was astonished that next day, even though a foreigner, he had no difficulty buying replacement ammunition yet the same shop that would not take his UK Driving Licence - acceptable by the car-hire firm - as age-proof to buy a couple of bottles of beer!
What puzzles many of we non-Americans is that guns seem almost a must-have object with few if any controls, in America.
That view is reinforced as much by the arguments you have over gun-ownership as by news reports of gratuitous murders; and by social-media "pen-friends" saying street-shootings, often between rival gangs, are almost routine.
Reporting any bad news tends to take precedance over good, wherever you are; except perhaps in a totalitarian state where all internal affairs are always "good" and external affairs usually "bad".
The difficulty too, with many multiple killings is that the gun-man rarely survives so we can't know what if any motive he had.
'
We do know that the vast majority of Americans are law-abiding whether they own guns; and that violent criminals any country won't obey any firearms laws any more than they obey any others.
So I looked into it a while ago; in response to a Californian on a slightly forum similar to this but generally less febrile. I do not know if she and her husband own a gun but she was commeting despairingly on the many random non-'terrorist' killings in the USA - events extremely rare in most other developed countries.
I define 'terrorism' as usual, as having specific political ends; and both the USA and UK have lists of certain physical or on-line organisations that are or may be terrorist. Those inciting hatred and pshycal violence can be banned in the UK. One such was possibly intended for the USA and looked American, but was traced to Russia.
So....
I found the level of gun-ownership by American households, surveyed within the USA, as about half - but without differentiating between a single pistol and a private arsenal.
I looked at the NRA - prominent in your national debates on gun control and tending to be seen abroad as huge and very powerful. I was surprised to find it far smaller than it seems. I forget the figures but its membership is a fraction of that households number, and a very small proportion of the adult American population generally. Its voice comes from, as I think its web-site revealed, that despite its modest subscription it can afford to support sympathetic politicians' campaigns.
[i]I will believe you[/i] if say the NRA does not support or condone the criminal element, let alone the types who casually shoot school pupils in their classes. I am sure it does nothing of the sort, though its political voice might give some encouragment to violent non-members trying to justify themeselves.
Why so many guns in the US? Looking at it from outside, your arguments for and against seem heavily influenced by four factors. Two are romantic attachments: to a 'Wild West' hunting culture notorious for slaughtering wild animals irrespective of need; and to an amendment made to the Constitution before the nation could create proper Armed Services.
The others? Aside from agricultural pest control, land-management and self-defence against dangerous animals? Legitimate, controlled sport shooting; and simple fear of being attacked.
Sports shooting is found in many countries and in some, the arguments against shooting animals revolve around cruelty and enviromental matters.
The fear and self-defence motive is very difficult where the easy, supermarket-level availability of guns and ammunition in some States at least, may create a vicious circle. The [i]hazard[/i] of an armed robbery in your home exists especially where potential robbers can buy guns very easily. Fear prevents properly assessing the personal [i]risk[/i] but as it is just as easy to buy any sort of gun to defend your home, one feeds on the other.
The "survivalist" types may be an extreme manifestation of that, but I imagine they are a tiny minority.
The USA looks awash with weapons when seen from countries where legal gun-ownership is simply not very popular, is under very tight controls and is limited to sports, antique collection (of no-working weapons) and agriculture. A distorion, yes, but it comes from a relatively numerous high rate of murder, especially the high rate of random multiple shootings in schools and work-places, and your lively debates over gun laws.
'
The position in the UK?
Terrorists apart, whose more recent specimens have used bombs, vehicles and knives rather than guns...
Some criminals, particularly the drugs gangs, do use guns but most of their murders are among teenagers and young men, by stabbing because it is very difficult to obtain guns but easy to take a knife from the kitchen. Theirs is too, a circle of fear. Once embroiled in gangs these teenagers know someone similar might stab them so they feel safer by being potential killers too.
Our Police have specialist firearms officers - as we saw recently when one had to shoot a pet dog that had killed a child. (I don't know if this dog was of an illegal breed.) Otherwise the Police are not routinely armed as they are in the USA and many Eurpean countries - they do not want it, and there have been very few public calls for it.
There is no gun-owning tradition in Britain; very few people have ever handled a gun, outside of any farming, sporting or Services experiences. Most don't want to, either. Of all the many people I have know over the years I cannot think of more than two gun-owners. One a clay-pigeon shooter, the other owning few antiques useable only to the extent of demonstrating the flintlock.
Not only that, but calls for changes are usually for even tighter restrictions.
The last era for English men regularly to "bear arms" was Mediaeval, when it was the long-bow, not gun; and not by "right" but compulsory so armies could be raised easily!
####
A wry observation, told me by a friend:
Once, on holiday in America, he was invited to the home of a farming family. His hosts offered him the chance to try some of their twenty or so guns ("many have lots more!", he was told) on their private range. He was astonished that next day, even though a foreigner, he had no difficulty buying replacement ammunition yet the same shop that would not take his UK Driving Licence - acceptable by the car-hire firm - as age-proof to buy a couple of bottles of beer!
SW-User
@SW-User Gun violence is actually quite widespread in America. More so than any other country on earth. Ignore the media if you want, but look up the statistics. More people die there to gun violence than any other country, excepting those that are in the middle of a war. Truth. And more mass shootings happen in the US than any other country, too. By far. Another truth.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User Are the statistics behind those points on only deliberate shootings?
I recall reading observations that there are also many accidents with guns, fatal or not.
I recall reading observations that there are also many accidents with guns, fatal or not.