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People still think climate change is a hoax?

Alright, the world has existed for millions of years and humans have lived on it for millennia also. But the drastic changes happening in the natural world around us is alarming.

How do these deniers not see it?

What d'yall think? Is the whole climate change debate a bogeyman unleashed for I don't know what reasons.

Or is it something real that we all are responsible for?
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
Well, you've now had over 200 replies and what they show is a bitter divide between those who do accept the climate is changing by or under human influence, and understand it; and people who not only do not believe it but will not try to understand it.


The idea is that it is some sort of "hoax" (i.e. a gigantic international lie by unidentified people for no discernible purpose and benefit) is untenable on simple logic.

Especially since many of those countries are otherwise generally hostile to each other, or at least self-centred, so hardly likely to co-operate in creating and maintaining a massive lie (the "hoax" as you say some call it). Lies are very hard to maintain even by individuals, and lies eventually break, so it would be impossible to create and maintain an enormous lie at State level even between friendly nations.

Calling such a lie a "hoax" is a bit euphemistic. A hoax is a lie by definition.

Instead, the increasingly weak lies are those of leaders and their followers of a very few, lone, isolationist governments who want to deny the fact and reasons for the climate's artificial changes, for purely personal or political/economic reasons.

.....

The reason for recognising we are changing the climate and trying to minimise the damage - which will be hard for us all - is obvious. The consequences of our ameliorating actions will not be easy or comfortable and I doubt anyone thinks they will be; but the consequences of inaction would be even worse.

The reasons some so desperately to keep calling it a "hoax" or "lie" are opaque, especially if they can only stoop to insults rather than honestly stating their rationale. Some seem genuinely confused by reading about palaeo-climates without really understanding the subject. Others perhaps realise the implications and (understandably) fear them so try to deny the fact as if that will make it go away. Still others may have political or other interests in denying anthropogenic climate-change - or even just climate-change.**


I think the major problem is that one or two major countries, but by no means all, have allowed the matter to become a very divisive but very shallow, domestic political spat whereas of course, it transcends all ideologies, creeds and cultures, and affects everyone on the planet. Otherwise, even in multi-party democracies, the matter is largely agreed across the board and the parties differ only on policy details.

...

What would happen if we carried on as if nothing is happening? Well apart from the large areas of the world becoming inhospitably arid and many coastal areas being inundated.... Eventually we will run out of coal and oil, but what do do then?

.....

We are the last major species to have evolved on Earth - our genus is only about 4M years old, our species <1M - yet has become the most dangerous and destructive of all animals, ultimately to ourselves. We won't destroy the planet (that "save the planet" slogan is plain silly), nor drive ourselves into extinction; but we are certainly heading for terrible times ahead, by our own acts.

We started to recognise the problems more than 100 years ago but have only just started to address them.. I think that was largely because much of the 20C clung to a naive assumption that Science and Engineering would solve everything. They could help us now, and are trying to; but not alone and not as we had thought for about 200 years, by ever-bigger, ever-more, so increasing profligacy of exhaustible natural resources.

...

What would happen if we carried on as if nothing is happening?

Well apart from large areas of the world becoming inhospitably arid and many coastal low-lands becoming inundated, with dreadful social damage....

Eventually we will run out of coal and oil, and some metal ores, but what then?

Never mind, it will be for our descendants to face.

.........

*The geologists are studying evidence in sediments, ice-cores etc. of the Quaternary climate oscillations to establish what the climate did in the past couple of million years when Nature had it all to herself. This allows determining what we could expect if humanity had not spent the last couple of thousand years messing it up at an ever-increasing rate. And also what to expect as a result of our interference, on temperatures, ice-covers and sea-levels.


**Interestingly, a president of one major nation tried to deny man-made climate-change for direct, domestic political purposes; yet also hinted at wanting his nation to take over another country's Arctic territory that could well lose its ice-sheet by the climate warming. He was told "certainly not", of course; but it does not take much thinking to comprehend his duplicity.
SW-User
@ArishMell I believe that there was a decades long conspiracy surrounding climate change. But it was perpetrated by those who wanted to cover it up, not promote it.
SW-User
@ArishMell

I find it funny how the ones telling us what we can and can’t do in the name of climate change. Don’t do it. 😁

Anyway they’ve lied to us for years, many just aren’t ready to see it 👀
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ArishMell it is a hoax just like covid. . Your naive belief in everything your government tells you is a cute relic of a bygone era. Your government has an agenda and it is not for your good.
SW-User
@hippyjoe1955

We are the carbon they want to reduce 😑
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@SW-User exactly. Poor old @ArishMell is caught in a time warp where everyone believed their government because they were the government. If the government said go to war you went to war unquestioningly. If the government there was a spy next door then there was a spy next door. Sadly such unquestioning loyalty has not served us well as the government has decided that it is now God and can control the weather and the courses of disease and even create new foods for the people to eat.
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windinhishair · 61-69, M
@ArishMell Thank you for the great post. For people to continue to deny the reality of global climate change—something they can see with their own eyes and experience daily—while ignoring scientific consensus, facts, and data, shows a profound lack of cognitive and reasoning skills. At this point in time it is impossible to reach those people. The adults need to take action now and leave them in the dustbin of history, which will not be kind to the deniers.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@windinhishair Thank you! I have a strong suspicion that many of the "deniers" do have those skills, but choose deliberately to stick to their dogma, for whatever are their own reasons.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@hippyjoe1955 You really are rude, aren't you - from your desperation to cling to your belief that you and only you are right.

You know very well man-induced climate-change, and the pandemic, were real but because they do not fit you own ideology you dismiss not only them but insult anyone who does obey your demands to believe you.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ArishMell speaking the truth is rude in your books? The fact is that the government is not our friend. It is often against us and our better interests. Ever notice how every solution it offers for the phoney climate change takes nearer to the stone age?
SandWitch · 26-30, F
@ArishMell
Well, you've now had over 200 replies and what they show is a bitter divide between those who do accept the climate is changing by or under human influence, and understand it; and people who not only do not believe it but will not try to understand it.


The idea is that it is some sort of "hoax" (i.e. a gigantic international lie by unidentified people for no discernible purpose and benefit) is untenable on simple logic.

Especially since many of those countries are otherwise generally hostile to each other, or at least self-centred, so hardly likely to co-operate in creating and maintaining a massive lie (the "hoax" as you say some call it). Lies are very hard to maintain even by individuals, and lies eventually break, so it would be impossible to create and maintain an enormous lie at State level even between friendly nations.

Calling such a lie a "hoax" is a bit euphemistic. A hoax is a lie by definition.

Instead, the increasingly weak lies are those of leaders and their followers of a very few, lone, isolationist governments who want to deny the fact and reasons for the climate's artificial changes, for purely personal or political/economic reasons.

.....

The reason for recognising we are changing the climate and trying to minimise the damage - which will be hard for us all - is obvious. The consequences of our ameliorating actions will not be easy or comfortable and I doubt anyone thinks they will be; but the consequences of inaction would be even worse.

The reasons some so desperately to keep calling it a "hoax" or "lie" are opaque, especially if they can only stoop to insults rather than honestly stating their rationale. Some seem genuinely confused by reading about palaeo-climates without really understanding the subject. Others perhaps realise the implications and (understandably) fear them so try to deny the fact as if that will make it go away. Still others may have political or other interests in denying anthropogenic climate-change - or even just climate-change.**


I think the major problem is that one or two major countries, but by no means all, have allowed the matter to become a very divisive but very shallow, domestic political spat whereas of course, it transcends all ideologies, creeds and cultures, and affects everyone on the planet. Otherwise, even in multi-party democracies, the matter is largely agreed across the board and the parties differ only on policy details.

...

What would happen if we carried on as if nothing is happening? Well apart from the large areas of the world becoming inhospitably arid and many coastal areas being inundated.... Eventually we will run out of coal and oil, but what do do then?

.....

We are the last major species to have evolved on Earth - our genus is only about 4M years old, our species <1M - yet has become the most dangerous and destructive of all animals, ultimately to ourselves. We won't destroy the planet (that "save the planet" slogan is plain silly), nor drive ourselves into extinction; but we are certainly heading for terrible times ahead, by our own acts.

We started to recognise the problems more than 100 years ago but have only just started to address them.. I think that was largely because much of the 20C clung to a naive assumption that Science and Engineering would solve everything. They could help us now, and are trying to; but not alone and not as we had thought for about 200 years, by ever-bigger, ever-more, so increasing profligacy of exhaustible natural resources.

...

What would happen if we carried on as if nothing is happening?

Well apart from large areas of the world becoming inhospitably arid and many coastal low-lands becoming inundated, with dreadful social damage....

Eventually we will run out of coal and oil, and some metal ores, but what then?

Never mind, it will be for our descendants to face.

.........

*The geologists are studying evidence in sediments, ice-cores etc. of the Quaternary climate oscillations to establish what the climate did in the past couple of million years when Nature had it all to herself. This allows determining what we could expect if humanity had not spent the last couple of thousand years messing it up at an ever-increasing rate. And also what to expect as a result of our interference, on temperatures, ice-covers and sea-levels.


**Interestingly, a president of one major nation tried to deny man-made climate-change for direct, domestic political purposes; yet also hinted at wanting his nation to take over another country's Arctic territory that could well lose its ice-sheet by the climate warming. He was told "certainly not", of course; but it does not take much thinking to comprehend his duplicity.


Is that your final answer? I didn't think the question was quite that complicated!
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SandWitch The question is simple. The matter is not.
SandWitch · 26-30, F
@ArishMell
In terms of "matter", if we suddenly stopped burning fossil fuels to heat our homes and went solar for heating instead and theoretically, everyone walked to work and left their cars in the garage at home instead of burning petrol at a great rate each day, do you think we'd be having this conversation of "matter" about global climate change?

Or, do you think we would have averted the issue of climate change entirely because we stopped burning fossil fuels?
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SandWitch I think we would still be having the conversation because even if we "suddenly" stopped, say, within a year, it would probably take quite some time for natural systems to recover.

We would avert or minimise artificial climate-change. We cannot stop natural, long-term changes (over hundreds and thousands of years, not merely rosy memories of idyllic Summers and frosty Winters) but they are slow so possibly easier to handle.

I think mankind faces a set of very serious matters, of which climate-change is the most immediate and arguably one we can deal with, but all these problems could have very deep, world-wide consequences and mitigating any of them is likely to be very difficult and painful.
SW-User
@ArishMell

NASA take billions of tax money every day, in return for fake paid for science and ridiculous videos of space etc.
they control the weather and cause flooding and fires, the media push this BS on us, nothing they predicted has happened.

Yet people truly believe and trust them, while they fly around on private jets, boats etc. telling us to eat bugs and fake meat made from tumours.

It’s not rocket science 🤣



[image/video deleted]
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@SW-User Why do you think NASA is perpetrating a huge fraud, and has been doing for decades?

Pauses to scroll that irritating, meaningless, 1-second video off the screen... You are not the only one to do that, and it is a mere gimmick for no purpose.

I agree there is far too much air travel, but whether by private or commercial services is irrelevant. Even more wasteful, needless and environmentally questionable is the cruise industry, using gigantic ships built to last only about 20 - 30 years then scrapped, merely to provide expensive holidays. Really though, they are extreme examples of modern, "Western" society's undeniable profligacy, loving needless luxury; and I can understand why some in our molly-coddled lives deny or resist anything threatening that.


I realise you are seeing everything only as an American in her own country, but other countries and blocs are also engaged in Space research and travel: Russia, China. India, the European Union. It is possible that even this dialogue by Internet is crossing the Atlantic by satellite, though I think most trans-Atlantic telecommunications are by fibre-optical cable on the sea-bed.

Are you saying they too are all lying?
Why would they?
For whose benefit?
How do they maintain the lies, which would be extremely difficult if not downright impossible to do?

How does NASA "control the weather"? Even a gentle Summer anticyclone is a huge mechanism hundreds of miles in diameter, lasting for days, and far more powerful than any man-made, single system.
Where do they control it?
Why do they control it?
Man's effect on the global climate, hence regional weather, is from over a century of ever-increasing activity world-wide, not just NASA!

You say supported by the "media"?
Which media?
In which countries?
Does the USA have any independent public-service, rather than State, broadcasters?


We all need know how to sift news from propaganda, understand mistakes from lies, etc. The least reliable for information are the so-called "social media" on the Internet (all too often very "antisocial media"); but those sites are really opinion-gatherers and some, like Meta and X, are data-gatherers for their commercial clients. They do not pretend to provide genuine news and information from independent, neutral, professional journalists who would soon sniff out the sort of lies you accuse your Government of committing.

They do though host a lot of false "news" from countries like Russia, using sites like Telegram; but identifying these correctly usually needs professional journalists in free countries to use various verification techniques. They'd see through NASA almost straight away if it was lying as you claim!
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ArishMell what is wrong with cruises? I have been on one but I have no issue with those who have. What is your issue?
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@hippyjoe1955 I know they are extremely popular and huge numbers of people enjoy them, but they happen to be a rather ostentatious example of a luxury that is becoming ever more wasteful and unsustainable.

It does seem a lot of attention is focussed on merchant shipping carrying vast quantities of goods around the world - some of the cargo vital, some not; but a lot less on the luxury cruise industry.


The cruise-ships consist of a vast amount of material, and at the end of their quite short lives of burning huge tonnages of heavy bunker oil, many are broken up in appalling environmental, safety and employment conditions on Asian beaches. The ship-breakers themselves are resourceful and sell as many of the fittings, furnishings and loose items as they can, as well as the metals to the refiners. In a few places there are even small fabrication companies buying the cut-up steel as raw material for making industrial-equipment components directly, in incredibly grotty workshops; but the whole industry from drawing-board (well, computer screen nowadays!) to breaker's yard is very wasteful and increasingly questionable.

There are now now public, vehicle and passenger ferries across the North Sea between the British Isles and Scandinavia - public-transport not merely pleasure-trips. One cost factor in their demise may have been the increasing cost both of fuel and of having to fit exhaust-gas scrubbers to the vessels. Most merchant ships burn a type of heavy Diesel oil that is often highly sulphurous (it shows as yellow-tinged fumes), so the maritime regulations were tightened to enforce cleaner exhaust gases. Easy enough on a new ship with advanced engine and exhaust designs from the start, but expensive as a retro-fit.

By all means enjoy your maritime holidays while you can, but I do wonder how much longer it can last.
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
@sladejr It would be even less tenable then, because every government has its own "incentives" that are often very much at odds with others'.

They find it hard enough to co-operate on open, genuine, constructive policies without trying to concoct and maintain any "conspiracy" as alleged.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ArishMell Climate change is a scam and has been since its beginning. Governments need conflict or crisis to remain relevant. Thus in the US there was the cold war, the war in Vietnam. The wars across the globe. Then there was the great battle for human rights and the just society. Then the war on drugs and the war on weather. etc etc etc. Only the naive believe anything the government is pushing is legitimate. Remember the scam that was COVID? How about the killer vaxes? Foolish people don't look beyond the surface and they get conned into all kinds of foolish activities.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@hippyjoe1955 I do look beyond the surface and the immediate.

I think about motives, logic and feasibility when someone tells to believe XYZ is some international "conspiracy" by governments who where friends, find it hard to co-operate on day-to-day matters like transport, trade, security and environmental protection.

I know one make of several makes of Covid vaccine later proved to be more dangerous than it should have been, though sadly that was not really surprising given the rush to develop them in the face of a new, infectious disease of highly variable short and long-term effects.

Human rights even in democracies are in danger, from many quarters but especially states that do not believe in them (Russia, China, Middle Eastern theocracies, etc.)

The "Cold War" was all too real - unless you are writing from the Kremlin perhaps. The Vietnam war was fought for what was seen at the time as a noble cause, yes as well as furthering the USA's interests, but ultimately unwinnable as should have been seen in the White House and Pentagon at the time.

.

Nevertheless, you believe (man-made) climate-change, and pandemics, are either non-existent or some sort of deliberate policy... so, why?
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@ArishMell I know the climate changes. It changes naturally. We can't stop it. I believe pandemics happen. They happen naturally. (Covid) is not a natural virus. However the vaxes were rushed into usage and have been shown to be much much much more dangerous than the disease. I feel the same way about trying to prevent climate change