When you see video footage of ICE agents murdering citizens, how does it make you feel?
Robot
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BohoBabe · M
@deathfairy I hate this argument. All land is stolen land, America shouldn't be singled out.
That said, nobody should be murdered for protesting, and the way ICE is treating people is bad enough that they should be disbanded.
That said, nobody should be murdered for protesting, and the way ICE is treating people is bad enough that they should be disbanded.
MethDozer · M
@BohoBabe Not really. As an American I can attest it is different here. All land is conquered land argument has some merit. Yet the USA is litterelly stolen. We drafted treaties with numerous tribes based on our own anglo/euro legal codes and completely reneged on those treaties. That makes it way different. It is stolen, not just conquered
Charity · 70-79
@BohoBabe
Actually all land isn't stolen the first people to inhabit a land or the indigenous people. According to history people began to migrate into the Americas some say 10 some say 15 some say 25 some say 30,000 years ago. History tells us the Indians are indigenous they were the first to occupy the land and occupied it up until it was taken over 200 years ago.
USA - IWGIA - International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs https://share.google/tPgkero6tbsBJemnR
Actually all land isn't stolen the first people to inhabit a land or the indigenous people. According to history people began to migrate into the Americas some say 10 some say 15 some say 25 some say 30,000 years ago. History tells us the Indians are indigenous they were the first to occupy the land and occupied it up until it was taken over 200 years ago.
USA - IWGIA - International Work Group for Indigenous Affairs https://share.google/tPgkero6tbsBJemnR
BohoBabe · M
@MethDozer
True, but that was the norm at the time. Same goes for imperialism and slavery. That doesn't make it right, but it needs to be judged within historical context. People use the same line about stolen land in Europe because if you go back far enough, almost every government has done that.
It also have some negative implications. If the American government didn't screw over those tribes, would it be ok to deport undocumented immigrants no matter the situation? If we found a country that literally never did that, could that government deport a child born to undocumented immigrants?
It's a much better argument to just say that if someone is undocumented, but they haven't committed any other crimes, the best thing for society as a whole is a path to citizenship. And we can also hire more immigration judges to make it easier to immigrate legally.
Yet the USA is litterelly stolen. We drafted treaties with numerous tribes based on our own anglo/euro legal codes and completely reneged on those treaties.
True, but that was the norm at the time. Same goes for imperialism and slavery. That doesn't make it right, but it needs to be judged within historical context. People use the same line about stolen land in Europe because if you go back far enough, almost every government has done that.
It also have some negative implications. If the American government didn't screw over those tribes, would it be ok to deport undocumented immigrants no matter the situation? If we found a country that literally never did that, could that government deport a child born to undocumented immigrants?
It's a much better argument to just say that if someone is undocumented, but they haven't committed any other crimes, the best thing for society as a whole is a path to citizenship. And we can also hire more immigration judges to make it easier to immigrate legally.
MethDozer · M
@BohoBabe it wasnt though and even if it was that doesnt change anything.
You don't know the history of the "New World" of you can accept that the US relationships with the Native Tribes is a tade different than other nations in the New World.. All NW lands were conquered, the USA was litterally stolen.
You don't know the history of the "New World" of you can accept that the US relationships with the Native Tribes is a tade different than other nations in the New World.. All NW lands were conquered, the USA was litterally stolen.
MethDozer · M
@BohoBabe It's not splitting hairs and I don't but in this "HiSToriCaL CoNtExT" arguement to excuse use from owning up to our past debts.
You can excuse my country from Germany all you want. But I will judge my country from over here. Should we judge you krauts and the nazi republic on HiStOricAl ConTeXt as well?
You can excuse my country from Germany all you want. But I will judge my country from over here. Should we judge you krauts and the nazi republic on HiStOricAl ConTeXt as well?
BohoBabe · M
@MethDozer I guarantee most Ukrainians would say their land was stolen if they lose this war. Saying the land wasn't stolen because it was won in a competition that one side was forced into, but it was stolen if one side reneged on a deal, that sounds like splitting hairs.
I have dual citizenship so I can excuse America and Germany. 😛
No, because by the time the Nazis took over, things like imperialism and genocide had been considered unacceptable for a long time. Before the Holocaust, the Ottoman Empire did the Armenian Genocide in secret and when it came out, it was a huge scandal. So no, genocide was no longer the norm by that point.
I have dual citizenship so I can excuse America and Germany. 😛
No, because by the time the Nazis took over, things like imperialism and genocide had been considered unacceptable for a long time. Before the Holocaust, the Ottoman Empire did the Armenian Genocide in secret and when it came out, it was a huge scandal. So no, genocide was no longer the norm by that point.
fanuc2013 · 51-55, F
@deathfairy Look back through history. Land "belongs" to whoever can take it and hold it! That goes against our modern ideas of right and wrong, but nothing can be done about that now.