I Believe We Were Created: Change My Mind

@redredred [quote]A quick look at the human spine shows there was very little intelligence in the design of it. A first year engineering student could improve on the spine.[/quote]

Hmm. Well, I wonder why they haven't.

@redredred And yet it works for the entire life of the person. Amazing how such a bad design works so well.

@AkioTsukino [quote]I wonder why they haven’t[/quote]

because the human spine, like everything else on the planet, wasn’t designed by some intentional intelligence... it evolved.

All vertebrates have discs of cartilage that lubricate the joints between the vertebrae in the spinal column. These discs are compressible to absorb shock and strain. They have the consistency of firm rubber and allow the spine to be flexible while remaining strong. In humans, though, these discs can “slip” because they are not inserted in a way that makes sense given our species’ upright posture.

In all vertebrates except humans the spinal discs are positioned in line with the normal posture of that animal. For example, the spinal columns of fish endure completely different kinds of strain than the spinal columns of mammals. The fish uses its backbone to stiffen its body and then pulls against it in a side-to-side motion in order to swim. But fish don’t have to worry much about gravity and shock absorption since they are suspended in water.

Mammals, however, must use limbs to hold their body weight, and those limbs must attach to the spinal column. Different mammals have different postures and so require different strategies for weight distribution via the spine. In almost all of the tremendously diverse spinal columns found in nature, the spinal discs have adapted to the posture and gait of the animal. But not in ours.

As our ancestors evolved into a more upright posture, the lumbar (lower) area of the vertebral column became sharply curved. It’s that curve in our lower backs that allows us to walk upright, and to move faster than when we walked on a fours. Unfortunately, that rearrangement of our bones wasn’t accompanied by alterations to the spinal discs. Consequently we’re left with a lower back that is kind of, sort of, might be, could be adequate, but definitely not ‘perfect’ (whatever that would be).

Human vertebral discs are in an arrangement that is optimal for knuckle-walkers, not upright walkers. They still do a decent job of lubricating and supporting the spine, but they are much more prone to being pushed out of position than the vertebral discs of other animals. They are structured to resist gravity by pulling the vertebral joints toward the chest, as if humans were on all fours. With our upright posture, however, gravity often pulls them backward or downward, not toward the chest. Over time, this uneven pressure creates protuberances in the cartilage. This is known as a spinal disc herniation or, more commonly, a “slipped disc.”

Spinal disc herniation is unheard of in any primate species except humans.

@hippyjoe1955 Amazing that a so-called divine intelligence can be bested by a first year engineering student who could produce a design that works so much better. To be fair, the human spine is asked to work vertically when it’s design works so much better horizontally. It’s almost as if the design evolved from a horizontal application and we have to adjust to some compromises. Why would that be I wonder.

@redredred [quote]Amazing that a so-called divine intelligence can be bested by a first year engineering student who could produce a design that works so much better. To be fair, the human spine is asked to work vertically when it’s design works so much better horizontally. It’s almost as if the design evolved from a horizontal application and we have to adjust to some compromises. Why would that be I wonder.[/quote]

No, you don't wonder. That's the problem. You have a politicized world view that warps your capacity for logical thought and you overestimate the conclusions you draw from it. Your ideological obsessions create a need for you blame a god you don't believe exists for a design that your imaginary natural selection produced because of those ideological obsessions.

If the human spine works so much better horizontally why don't you walk around on all fours.

@AkioTsukino Studiously ignoring the evidence I gave you, huh? 😂

As always... so predictable

Run along

@AkioTsukino Unlike other primates, humans walk on two legs (bipedalism). Gorillas, chimps, bonobos and orang-utans amble about using their feet and their knuckles (quadrupedalism). However, moving around on four limbs can be inefficient. On open ground, bipedalism bestows an evolutionary advantage by allowing humans to move much faster than other primates, but that comes at a cost (with evolution, there are no free lunches)

The intestines and other visceral organs are held together with thin sheets of connective tissue called mesenteries. Mesenteries are elastic and act to keep the gut loosely in place. Because we are bipedal, with an upright posture, these thin sheets should be suspended from the top of the abdominal cavity. Instead, they are attached to the back of the abdominal cavity. That makes sense for the other quadrupedal primates, because their gut is then well-supported when they walk on all fours. However, it makes no sense for us… unless we evolved along with the other quadrupedal primates.

Because of the stress of supporting our internal organs from the back, the mesenteries can easily tear, causing internal haemorrhaging and damage to our gut, requiring surgical intervention (this is a common injury in traffic accidents… mainly affecting those stupid enough not to wear a seatbelt). It can also happen to people who sit for long periods of time (drivers, office workers, etc) simply because of the stress and strain of the gut being attached to the back, rather than the top, of the abdominal cavity.

@newjaninev2 [quote]Studiously ignoring the evidence I gave you, huh? 😂

As always... so predictable

Run along[/quote]

I have for the most part. Here's a thought for your arrogance and officious overestimation of intellect.

This! Is an exchange of ideas in a public forum. Give. Take. Until you are ready to do that I'm not interested in your propaganda in the guise of education. I figured that shit out when I was 6 years old.

If you aren't ready to listen or at least respect my beliefs you can shove yours up your arrogant ass. Do you understand? Are you capable of understanding?

So your evidence? Not interested even to look at. And I don't. And I wont.

@AkioTsukino careful reading is a really valuable life skill, you ought to look into it sometime. I clearly indicate that the human spine is obviously derived from a horizontal model and suffers it’s common weaknesses by being used vertically. I know there’s a bit of subtlety in that idea but if you work hard you might get the gist of it.

@redredred So the Creator used a common design with modifications that work. The spine lasts a life time. Hmmm so what is the issue here?

@AkioTsukino The entire realm of applied robotics is rife with such designs. It’s truly amazing how much seems to happen around you with you not taking notice.

@hippyjoe1955 the spine is generally a problem throughout life for most people certainly for those over thirty. It does not at all work well. As for lasting a lifetime, well sure for a life that ends in ones 20s

@redredred I am in my 60s. My spine still works fine. Not sure what your point is. Mom died at 93. Her spine still did its job.

@hippyjoe1955 So you’ve never had a backache? Google “Spine Institute” and see how many medical specialists there are just dealing with this divine design of yours. But I suppose you and granny know better.

@redredred I had a sports injury at 16 and have had backaches since then. I also inherited a degenerative spine from my maternal side. How do you know that this isn't a product of sin rather than evolution?

Oh, I bet you had your mind made up on that answer long before you were asked the question.

@redredred I sometimes have a head ache. Does that mean my head is defective as well? Tell you what you design a spine that is better than the one we have. Give it a go. What would it look like. What would its functions be. Would it be as flexible and long lasting and do all the things our present spine does? How would it be better? Please. The floor is open for your wisdom and design genius.

@hippyjoe1955 [quote] I sometimes have a head ache. Does that mean my head is defective as well?[/quote]

[Laughs. Hard] You set yourself up with that response!

@AkioTsukino then my purpose was met.

@hippyjoe1955 look into the entire realm of applied robotics

@redredred No I want you to design a spine that is superior to the one you are born with. Don't forget you need the strength, flexibility and the conduit capacity including all the in and out nerves. You make the claim you provide the evidence.

@hippyjoe1955 I did say a first year engineering student could. That’s not me. Remember what I told you about careful reading skills? You really should look into it.

BTW, Human designed structures fulfilling the role of a spine are used in robotics all the time.

@redredred I used to be an engineer. I can't design a better spine. It is simply too complex and lasts too long for me to make anything better. Amazing bit of engineering indeed. You should study it more before you make a further fool of yourself.