Strong arm robbery?
Can someone explain why the US is demanding that Ukraine give us billions of dollars in mineral rights, as part of a peace plan between Russia and Ukraine? What does Ukraine get out of this? Sounds like strong arm robbery to me.
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ArishMell · 70-79, M
It's the US, or at least Donald Trump and James Vance, sensing a business opportunity.
Many policitians and analyists have pointed out Trump does want the war there (and the one in Palestine) to end but also sees everything as a transaction that should end in his favour. It's a bit like wading into a lake to save someone from drowning, then sending him the clothes cleaning bill.
In theory Ukraine should benefit from a deal to sell minerals to the USA, but Trump sees it as the US benefiting from both the metals and the money. It is true that the USA has spent huge amounts of money on Ukraine's defence, but so have many other countries and they are not expecting repayments - they look beyond that.
The problem, and this appears to be what triggered that extraordinary shouting-match in the White House, is that Trump and Vance do not want to guarantee the US continue helping Ukraine protect itself from Russia, and started merely insulting Zelensky.
Now that the US President and Vice-President have had time to calm down, I wonder if they will think, or even care, how their behaviour will be seen around the world. Mr. Putin must be really enjoying what happened.
Many policitians and analyists have pointed out Trump does want the war there (and the one in Palestine) to end but also sees everything as a transaction that should end in his favour. It's a bit like wading into a lake to save someone from drowning, then sending him the clothes cleaning bill.
In theory Ukraine should benefit from a deal to sell minerals to the USA, but Trump sees it as the US benefiting from both the metals and the money. It is true that the USA has spent huge amounts of money on Ukraine's defence, but so have many other countries and they are not expecting repayments - they look beyond that.
The problem, and this appears to be what triggered that extraordinary shouting-match in the White House, is that Trump and Vance do not want to guarantee the US continue helping Ukraine protect itself from Russia, and started merely insulting Zelensky.
Now that the US President and Vice-President have had time to calm down, I wonder if they will think, or even care, how their behaviour will be seen around the world. Mr. Putin must be really enjoying what happened.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl Quite so: they would not care.
I have always been suspicious of the "special relationship" anyway.
I have always been suspicious of the "special relationship" anyway.
@ArishMell It's only "special" when America wants some extra bullet fodder, I guess...
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl That, but much more often money and my own country's industrial IP and profits.
@ArishMell Well, if Trump gets his way, we'll be learning Russian soon enough anyway...
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl To Hell in a hand-cart....
@ArishMell It'll be interesting to see how the emergency alert system would stand up when it comes to wars, though??? Especially when it's never worked as intended as it is in a nationwide alert.
They haven't even simulated a war games scenario on that system yet - and many people just turned it off on their phones, so if they're relying on just that... there's going to be a lot of sitting ducks.
Maybe they'll be scrambling to re-fit all the sirens they decommissioned years ago... which will be interesting at the same time as potentially getting bombed.
They haven't even simulated a war games scenario on that system yet - and many people just turned it off on their phones, so if they're relying on just that... there's going to be a lot of sitting ducks.
Maybe they'll be scrambling to re-fit all the sirens they decommissioned years ago... which will be interesting at the same time as potentially getting bombed.
KunsanVeteran · M
@HootyTheNightOwl GAWD FORBID!
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl More than just sirens. Those and other alerts were part of a very large and complex civil-defence system. All broken up, thrown away....
@ArishMell Lol, I'm not sure why I'm so worried about getting an alert, though... I mean, I don't even have a place to put a shelter, so I guess I'll just have to sit in my living room in the dark.
@KunsanVeteran Fortunately, the US is far enough away that they won't feel much pain from it... just like they didn't in the early hours of WWII.
And like Trump told us, we can't rely on American support this time, so we need to be thinking about the worst case scenario.
Still, one good thing is that it might make our relations with the EU closer than they've been since before Brexit... so it might not be all bad.
But, yes, there's a very real chance that Putin isn't going to stop after Trump gives him Ukraine. He might pause for a few years to regroup himself... but he will get hungry for more land again and there's a few countries around the other side of Ukraine that we are obliged to protect.
And like Trump told us, we can't rely on American support this time, so we need to be thinking about the worst case scenario.
Still, one good thing is that it might make our relations with the EU closer than they've been since before Brexit... so it might not be all bad.
But, yes, there's a very real chance that Putin isn't going to stop after Trump gives him Ukraine. He might pause for a few years to regroup himself... but he will get hungry for more land again and there's a few countries around the other side of Ukraine that we are obliged to protect.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl It was all designed as the Cold War heated, but understandably no-one in authority could really comprehend what would happen in the feared nuclear war, and much of the "official" advice to the public seemed based on World War Two practice. They did their best, I am sure, but were baffled, discussed frankly unworkable ideas and kept changing their minds on what to do.
A nuclear attack demands a bit more than the makeshift shelters, bandages and WRVS tea that had helped so many city dwellers to survive the Blitz.
That was in the UK but the US was no better.
Though this is drifting away from RockerDad's original question.
A nuclear attack demands a bit more than the makeshift shelters, bandages and WRVS tea that had helped so many city dwellers to survive the Blitz.
That was in the UK but the US was no better.
Though this is drifting away from RockerDad's original question.
@ArishMell
Maybe so... but, if America keeps Putin on his lead, then, the bombs we have to fear are more the usual type.
If you're just after more territory, it doesn't make much sense to irradiate it, to be fair. It limits your potential to use your new land - but, then again Putin doesn't really care about people eating nuclear waste, either... hence why he had his men digging around in the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
Still, even the makeshift shelters, bandages and WRVS tea would be better than just having people sat in their living rooms watching the nukes come in. We don't all have access to underground train tunnels we can camp in at night, basements or even an area where we won't get pelted with broken glass if a bomb hits locally enough to break a few windows.
I've looked around my home and about the safest place I have has two borrowed lights more or less right above my head, so, they'll likely have to go or be panelled in for my safety... and I'll have to hope that the front door doesn't get blown in.
A nuclear attack demands a bit more than the makeshift shelters, bandages and WRVS tea that had helped so many city dwellers to survive the Blitz.
Maybe so... but, if America keeps Putin on his lead, then, the bombs we have to fear are more the usual type.
If you're just after more territory, it doesn't make much sense to irradiate it, to be fair. It limits your potential to use your new land - but, then again Putin doesn't really care about people eating nuclear waste, either... hence why he had his men digging around in the Chernobyl exclusion zone.
Still, even the makeshift shelters, bandages and WRVS tea would be better than just having people sat in their living rooms watching the nukes come in. We don't all have access to underground train tunnels we can camp in at night, basements or even an area where we won't get pelted with broken glass if a bomb hits locally enough to break a few windows.
I've looked around my home and about the safest place I have has two borrowed lights more or less right above my head, so, they'll likely have to go or be panelled in for my safety... and I'll have to hope that the front door doesn't get blown in.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl I agree. I think the risk of nuclear war between Russia and the USA, or China and the USA, very low indeed. It is others who are more dangerous in that regard, particularly North Korea and perhaps Iran. If only because they have less to lose - or would lose disastrously in a war whose "winners" are the nations less devastated.
In any case, Russia, N. Korea and China have another, potentially even more destructive weapon they have already been using at relatively small, perhaps experimental but still very serious scales... the Internet. Together with individual attacks like sabotage and assassinations.
A salutary read about the Cold War precautions in the UK, with some international comparisons, is Julie McDowall's Attack Warning Red! - How Britain Prepared for Nuclear War.
In any case, Russia, N. Korea and China have another, potentially even more destructive weapon they have already been using at relatively small, perhaps experimental but still very serious scales... the Internet. Together with individual attacks like sabotage and assassinations.
A salutary read about the Cold War precautions in the UK, with some international comparisons, is Julie McDowall's Attack Warning Red! - How Britain Prepared for Nuclear War.
@ArishMell Yes, that's something that concerns me, too... it's far too easy to hack things like our new "emergency alert system" (hence why I'm saying that telecommunications alone aren't reliable - though it should be obvious that phone masts will be hit during a war, too), the NHS (as Russia already demonstrated), election processes, etc. Given how divided we are in some ways, a propaganda attack to divide any allegiances we might form could be more effective than dropping a nuke. They did a good job of it during the Brexit campaign.
There's nothing really stopping any country with nukes from going rogue any day, regardless of if there's a war or not... so far, they have chosen not to because they know such actions will have reactions - and even countries who are not allied to either side will take action out of fear of being nuked themselves, even if they are far away from the initial blast. We know from previous experiences that the reach of radiation is often global rather than just local.
We do know that Putin is likely to try to pitch up camp in nuclear power plants, though... so we could do with beefing up security around them - even if it means that we have to essentially recreate a prison compound around them.
There's nothing really stopping any country with nukes from going rogue any day, regardless of if there's a war or not... so far, they have chosen not to because they know such actions will have reactions - and even countries who are not allied to either side will take action out of fear of being nuked themselves, even if they are far away from the initial blast. We know from previous experiences that the reach of radiation is often global rather than just local.
We do know that Putin is likely to try to pitch up camp in nuclear power plants, though... so we could do with beefing up security around them - even if it means that we have to essentially recreate a prison compound around them.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl I think "we" - nearly everywhere - have sleep-walked into the hacking problem, by two routes.
Firstly the near-monopoly of one company's software, and the need for universality to make the Internet work, must be a big advantages to attackers with the appropriate IT skill.
Secondly by using the Internet so much it lays what should be private systems open to attack even with every attempt to use anti-virus software.
Recently I encountered a health survey in which the chain seems to contains a link by post, breaking the all-digital sequence. I wonder if major organisations will go back to using isolated systems and postal or carried communications to protect sensitive information - though with care because physical media (paper or digital) carried by individuals can be compromised by theft or accidental loss. Even if the thief does not know what his loot contains. It has happened!
I think the most recent attack on NHS information was not on NHS property directly but on a contract laboratory. If so why were the samples not simply designated by random codes meaning only the individual sample identity? The patients' and doctors' details would be kept at the commissioning hospital, on computers maybe, but those behind isolating servers. Servers further, programmed to spot any incoming attack, disable and block it, and report its disabled source and programme code to the relevant authorities.
Nuclear power-plants normally do have very strong security; though any fences and guards can be attacked physically of course. Besides, no amount of compound-building will protect the buildings from missiles or drones.
Firstly the near-monopoly of one company's software, and the need for universality to make the Internet work, must be a big advantages to attackers with the appropriate IT skill.
Secondly by using the Internet so much it lays what should be private systems open to attack even with every attempt to use anti-virus software.
Recently I encountered a health survey in which the chain seems to contains a link by post, breaking the all-digital sequence. I wonder if major organisations will go back to using isolated systems and postal or carried communications to protect sensitive information - though with care because physical media (paper or digital) carried by individuals can be compromised by theft or accidental loss. Even if the thief does not know what his loot contains. It has happened!
I think the most recent attack on NHS information was not on NHS property directly but on a contract laboratory. If so why were the samples not simply designated by random codes meaning only the individual sample identity? The patients' and doctors' details would be kept at the commissioning hospital, on computers maybe, but those behind isolating servers. Servers further, programmed to spot any incoming attack, disable and block it, and report its disabled source and programme code to the relevant authorities.
Nuclear power-plants normally do have very strong security; though any fences and guards can be attacked physically of course. Besides, no amount of compound-building will protect the buildings from missiles or drones.
@ArishMell Yeah, I've been kicked out of my doctor's surgery that I'd been with since birth because the system wouldn't take a form I kept filling out and returning... they're still saying they have no record of the form being returned.
While I have no reason to suspect any sort of attack, it does highlight that the system isn't fit for purpose... and there's no back up to prevent this from happening.
I'm not thinking of drones or missiles as much as I'm thinking of the plant being used as a trench - which we know Putin has a history of doing because he knows it's harder to shoot his armies out of power plants.
His troops left a right mess behind them after they left Chernobyl... and we know that is now being decommissioned at that. They destroyed machinery in the wider exclusion zone area. I have no proof of it now because I watched the video near the start of the war, but I think one of the areas hit might have been where the people living in the exclusion zone take their food to have radiation levels in it tested (it certainly looked very much like the same room that I've seen in earlier videos).
Yes, they're still growing and eating their own produce within that zone because it's cheaper than getting it bought in from other places locally.
If they're doing that to Chernobyl... what are we going to find when we get Putin's troops out of the other power plant they have - and what will he do to ours next???
While I have no reason to suspect any sort of attack, it does highlight that the system isn't fit for purpose... and there's no back up to prevent this from happening.
I'm not thinking of drones or missiles as much as I'm thinking of the plant being used as a trench - which we know Putin has a history of doing because he knows it's harder to shoot his armies out of power plants.
His troops left a right mess behind them after they left Chernobyl... and we know that is now being decommissioned at that. They destroyed machinery in the wider exclusion zone area. I have no proof of it now because I watched the video near the start of the war, but I think one of the areas hit might have been where the people living in the exclusion zone take their food to have radiation levels in it tested (it certainly looked very much like the same room that I've seen in earlier videos).
Yes, they're still growing and eating their own produce within that zone because it's cheaper than getting it bought in from other places locally.
If they're doing that to Chernobyl... what are we going to find when we get Putin's troops out of the other power plant they have - and what will he do to ours next???
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@HootyTheNightOwl I seem fairly lucky with my health-centre but I know the service is very patchy and I think part of that is down to making the system far more complicated than it need be. So many organisations hide behind complicated web-sites and remote call-centres they think somehow "efficient". They might be efficient for the business, but not for the customer!
Sometimes I wonder how much President Putin really understands what is happening in Ukraine. He is undeniably ruthless and cruel so is unlikely to care, but I wonder if his generals only tell him what is wise to tell him, for their own safety. Similarly with his diplomats who are in contact with the outside world so know what other countries are seeing happening. These people must all know the FSB has a store of Novichok and is happy to use it.
Rcently a senior Russian army officer defected, saying he did so after being ordered to the front-line for having told his superiors their order to tell the troops to regard all Ukrainian civilians as legitimate military targets, breaks international law.
He also warned us that the West is mistaken to believe the remaining ex-Soviet ICBMs are no longer functional. They are, by being kept maintained.
Sometimes I wonder how much President Putin really understands what is happening in Ukraine. He is undeniably ruthless and cruel so is unlikely to care, but I wonder if his generals only tell him what is wise to tell him, for their own safety. Similarly with his diplomats who are in contact with the outside world so know what other countries are seeing happening. These people must all know the FSB has a store of Novichok and is happy to use it.
Rcently a senior Russian army officer defected, saying he did so after being ordered to the front-line for having told his superiors their order to tell the troops to regard all Ukrainian civilians as legitimate military targets, breaks international law.
He also warned us that the West is mistaken to believe the remaining ex-Soviet ICBMs are no longer functional. They are, by being kept maintained.
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