What should be done to stop Putin's genocide in Ukraine... as opposed to what has been done to date?
Is it time for the world to put a stop to this atrocity? How do we go about it?
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Settle a negotiated peace.
The only other option is to prolong the war and all the suffering it brings. The only way that Ukraine can win the war and maintain all of its own territory would be to massive upscale it's military capacity. That would cost a lot of money, time and lives. It wouldn't be certain to succeed either. The West has been doing the opposite. If people in the west are serious about prolonging this (as in really serious), then this is the cost
The only other option is to prolong the war and all the suffering it brings. The only way that Ukraine can win the war and maintain all of its own territory would be to massive upscale it's military capacity. That would cost a lot of money, time and lives. It wouldn't be certain to succeed either. The West has been doing the opposite. If people in the west are serious about prolonging this (as in really serious), then this is the cost
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@helenS Crimea is pro russian and the Donbas is (was) a mixture. I agree with the principle of national self-determination.
By that, I mean people's majority right to decide what state they are part of. I don't think I it is in any way feasible for Russia to conquer Ukraine at this point.
You suggested sending in paratroopers on another thread. If this is a serious suggestion, then it would create an outright hot war between EU states and Russia. That is what would happen and is that what you want?
By that, I mean people's majority right to decide what state they are part of. I don't think I it is in any way feasible for Russia to conquer Ukraine at this point.
You suggested sending in paratroopers on another thread. If this is a serious suggestion, then it would create an outright hot war between EU states and Russia. That is what would happen and is that what you want?
Northwest · M
@Burnley123 There is no such thing as a negotiated peace with Putin. He has a 100% track record, of lying about every single commitment he made to the rest of the world. In your face lies. Similar to Trump.
If Ukraine accepts a negotiated peace, by the time his troops occupy the negotiated territories, he will immediately launch another 3-day operation, to liberate the rest of Ukraine. Doesn't need an excuse.
Putin proved he's willing to accept 7X casualties, to achieve his objectives. Which is a standard Soviet strategy (Stalingrad comes to mind).
The West is not going to send troops, and Putin is not going to goad them into it.
So, Ukraine is fucked, with a caveat. If the West ups its commitment, Putin's numerical advantage will disappear. So at the cost of Ukraine lives, perhaps the war will end, when Russians rise up and demand Putin stop sending their kids to their deaths.
Putin can shove his nukes up his ass. He's not going to use them. It's not like he thinks the West can't annihilate Russia.
If Ukraine accepts a negotiated peace, by the time his troops occupy the negotiated territories, he will immediately launch another 3-day operation, to liberate the rest of Ukraine. Doesn't need an excuse.
Putin proved he's willing to accept 7X casualties, to achieve his objectives. Which is a standard Soviet strategy (Stalingrad comes to mind).
The West is not going to send troops, and Putin is not going to goad them into it.
So, Ukraine is fucked, with a caveat. If the West ups its commitment, Putin's numerical advantage will disappear. So at the cost of Ukraine lives, perhaps the war will end, when Russians rise up and demand Putin stop sending their kids to their deaths.
Putin can shove his nukes up his ass. He's not going to use them. It's not like he thinks the West can't annihilate Russia.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar The WW2 analogy is used relentlessly in all anti-war arguments. Whatever the context, balance of forces or historic relevance.
As I said above, modern Russia does not have the military capacity to even take the whole of Ukraine. Even if they did want to, the political and military cost of attacking a NATO member would be huge.
As I said above, modern Russia does not have the military capacity to even take the whole of Ukraine. Even if they did want to, the political and military cost of attacking a NATO member would be huge.
Elessar · 31-35, M
@Burnley123 The WW2 analogy is much older than WW2 itself amd more like the lesson that humanity never learns. Putin just like Hitler won't stop there, exactly like he didn't stop with Crimea in 2014. First it was Crimea now it's the Dombass. Then it'll be Kiev. Then it'll be Lviv. Then Moldova. And then, emboldened, it'll be straight out NATO territory.
The fact they don't have the capacity today doesn't mean they won't have the capacity tomorrow. That's another lesson humanity never learns, waiting for these authoritarian regimes to become near peer is always the same ol' mistake that will cost us the umpteenth, avoidable bloodbath.
The fact they don't have the capacity today doesn't mean they won't have the capacity tomorrow. That's another lesson humanity never learns, waiting for these authoritarian regimes to become near peer is always the same ol' mistake that will cost us the umpteenth, avoidable bloodbath.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest I agree that Putin's threat of nukes was probably empty but it spooked NATO last year at a time when the Ukrainians were making headway. That could have been consolidated and we would now be looking at a different situation.
I'm not advocating for trusting or liking putin. arguing for pragmatism the way things are going, what I suggested is an almost inevitable outcome anyway.
If trump is elected, then Trump will be doing the negotiating and we all know how little he cares for Ukraine. There are also questions around the committment of the Biden administration and the EU for how long they are prepared to fund the conflict.
To have Ukraine win the war (which at this stage is about the future if the Donbass) it would need to massive increase in funding and logistical support. If Kiev was still under threat than that would happen but it isn't and Russia has demonstrated it's lack of military capacity to make that happen.
Regardless of what I think, the war will continue all year because nobody wants to save face. After the US election a decision will be made
I'm not advocating for trusting or liking putin. arguing for pragmatism the way things are going, what I suggested is an almost inevitable outcome anyway.
If trump is elected, then Trump will be doing the negotiating and we all know how little he cares for Ukraine. There are also questions around the committment of the Biden administration and the EU for how long they are prepared to fund the conflict.
To have Ukraine win the war (which at this stage is about the future if the Donbass) it would need to massive increase in funding and logistical support. If Kiev was still under threat than that would happen but it isn't and Russia has demonstrated it's lack of military capacity to make that happen.
Regardless of what I think, the war will continue all year because nobody wants to save face. After the US election a decision will be made
Elessar · 31-35, M
@Burnley123
it would need to massive increase in funding and logistical support
I like this second proposal of yours better
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@helenS You've suggested sending paratroopers into Russia. Would they be German paratroopers? That action would be probably invite world war three and also unite Russia behind Putin.
Freedom against tyranny?
Well I've been consistently against wars all of my adult life and western liberal democracies have started many of them.
I addition, the question as to whether bullies and tyrants should be tolerated needs to be put to Netanyahu. At this point, the Palestinian death toll is greater than the Ukrainian one. It's violence done by a western ally.
In addition, the 'free world' supports many dictatorships in the world, including Saudi Arabia. These fats are fought for geopolitical advantage, not freedom.
Freedom against tyranny?
Well I've been consistently against wars all of my adult life and western liberal democracies have started many of them.
I addition, the question as to whether bullies and tyrants should be tolerated needs to be put to Netanyahu. At this point, the Palestinian death toll is greater than the Ukrainian one. It's violence done by a western ally.
In addition, the 'free world' supports many dictatorships in the world, including Saudi Arabia. These fats are fought for geopolitical advantage, not freedom.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar it's a hypothetical because to be honest, it won't happen. Whether is should is a different question but the west is actually reducing funding, even with Biden in the whitehouse.
helenS · 36-40, F
@Burnley123
I won't comment on the "Palestinian death toll", not here; not in this thread.
You've suggested sending paratroopers into Russia.
Into Russia?? I really didn't. 😐Well I've been consistently against wars all of my adult life and western liberal democracies have started many of them.
Name one example of a war between two democracies during your adult life, please.I won't comment on the "Palestinian death toll", not here; not in this thread.
Northwest · M
@Burnley123
This is what Putin is counting on. Trump will veto every single Ukraine funding bill Congress will send his way.
Agree. Further complicating things, is the Israel situation. The Biden administration, tied Ukraine military aid to Israel military aid. Colossal hypocrisy on the US (and Western) side, but it is what it is.
If trump is elected, then Trump will be doing the negotiating and we all know how little he cares for Ukraine.
This is what Putin is counting on. Trump will veto every single Ukraine funding bill Congress will send his way.
Regardless of what I think, the war will continue all year because nobody wants to save face. After the US election a decision will be made
Agree. Further complicating things, is the Israel situation. The Biden administration, tied Ukraine military aid to Israel military aid. Colossal hypocrisy on the US (and Western) side, but it is what it is.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@helenS The Nazis could have been stopped in 1938. Not easily but much easier. Germany wasn't prepared for war in 1938 and their army hadn't yet devised the plan that won the Battle of France It would have probably been a bit more like WW1, with Britain and France grinding down Germany with superior numbers and access to resources. It would still have been a brutal conflict.
Putin has also been stopped from taking the whole of Ukraine. Something which btw, I completely agree with.
Putin has also been stopped from taking the whole of Ukraine. Something which btw, I completely agree with.
Elessar · 31-35, M
@Burnley123 Everyone said the ongoing conflict wouldn't ever happen even when they were amassing forces near the RU-UA east border and here we are...
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@helenS Sending paratrooper into Ukraine is what you said. That is fair enough
However, it would still start a hot war between the EU and Russia. That is not something to suggest lightly. If it did, you wouldn't want the consequences. It also won't happen because the EU won't be sending troops. Look at the reaction to Macron's comments.
Can I name one war between two democracies in my adult life?
Why? If people elect the government and it launches a military campaign, the same number of people will still die.
Western backed dictatorships have also started plenty of wars. The Saudis in Yemen is an obvious example.
I know you don't want to fall out with me on Israel/Palestine because we have strongly different views but it is relevent. If we are drawing a distinction between the good guys and freedom fighters in the west and violence of tyranny, well the invasion. and bombing of Gaza does not sit well with that narrative.
We can also talk about all the shitty invasions (on both sides) during the cold war era, justified to domestic populations by a narrative if moral superiority. Also, the Iraq war and Afghanistan, which were wars against dictatorships.
However, it would still start a hot war between the EU and Russia. That is not something to suggest lightly. If it did, you wouldn't want the consequences. It also won't happen because the EU won't be sending troops. Look at the reaction to Macron's comments.
Can I name one war between two democracies in my adult life?
Why? If people elect the government and it launches a military campaign, the same number of people will still die.
Western backed dictatorships have also started plenty of wars. The Saudis in Yemen is an obvious example.
I know you don't want to fall out with me on Israel/Palestine because we have strongly different views but it is relevent. If we are drawing a distinction between the good guys and freedom fighters in the west and violence of tyranny, well the invasion. and bombing of Gaza does not sit well with that narrative.
We can also talk about all the shitty invasions (on both sides) during the cold war era, justified to domestic populations by a narrative if moral superiority. Also, the Iraq war and Afghanistan, which were wars against dictatorships.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar 'Everyone said"
Not everyone. I did not think Russia would try to take the whole of Ukraine and I was expecting a limited offensive in the east if the country. I was surprised by that, yes.
However, what the invasion did demonstrate is that Russia is not a superpower like the soviet Union was. Not even close. Also given the huge economic and military cost of this long war, it makes invasion of anyone else less -not more- likely.
Not everyone. I did not think Russia would try to take the whole of Ukraine and I was expecting a limited offensive in the east if the country. I was surprised by that, yes.
However, what the invasion did demonstrate is that Russia is not a superpower like the soviet Union was. Not even close. Also given the huge economic and military cost of this long war, it makes invasion of anyone else less -not more- likely.